I spent another afternoon sketching Milt Gross pictures at the ASIFA Archive in Burbank. Once again I'm indebted to Mark Kausler and Steve Worth for making this possible. Gross really was a genius. The shoulders on this guy (above) are completely detached from the rib cage and yet it works. The head seems to come out of the sternum. How did Gross think of that?
How fearless Gross is! The guy (above) doesn't fall, though he's leaning and is painfully top-heavy. He doesn't fall for the perfectly logical reason that it's funnier if he doesn't.
I love Gross' walks. Strides like this (above) just beg to be animated funny.
This ball-throwing pose (above) probably worked better in print than it would in animation. Even so, the way the forms squash into each other certainly is interesting. Animators shouldn't be put off by the flat, print bias of the pictures. Even the flatest ones are terrific conceptual blockbusters.
The Comment Moderation is off now. I'm very sorry if comments were inadvertantly lost yesterday.
ReplyDeleteMilt Gross was a really fearless rule-breaking cartoonist, yet it seems that many people are often puzzled and embarrassed after seeing his work for the first time. It certainly took me some time to fully appreciate what he was doing. At first, his 30s and 40s comic pages looked sloppy and careless, but now I think they're truly a work of genius. Many of his characters are so awkwardly constructed and theoretically wrong, yet they look amazingly funny, and they actually work perfectly within the context of his comics. Also, I think Gross comics (especially those from 40s) are a great example of good panel & page composition and narrative economy. Shane Glines once posted a fascinating analysis of Gross comic page, using just the silhouettes of the characters, and shapes of the background objects.
ReplyDeleteWho would you consider as an animation equivalent of Milt Gross? My vote would probably go to Jim Tyer.
If you thought Gross was "sloppy" get a load of George Gately! Or Willard Mullin, for that matter. All made it work with their skill and mojo.
ReplyDeleteI love Milt Gross...but to me, the work stands alone as its own animal to such an extent that I can't imagine it being improved by animation, myself; that striding pose is a perfect drawing in itself. As to how he figured that stuff out? I think he just drew as he pleased, to crib another man's description.
ReplyDeleteIt's sure inventive but nothing you couldn't do too if you were devoting your own career to comics(have you ever thought about that, by the way?). You're not so bad yourself, you know. As a matter of fact such comics might be the most pure way to get your stories done as they should be. Whaddya think?
I'm pretty sure most of you already know this, but Milt Gross was one of the earliest animation pioneers, doing his work in the early teens (for Bray, I think), which, of course, accounts for his loose cartooning style.
ReplyDeleteBut what gets me the most about Milt's work is his drawing style, coupled with his off-kilter sense of humor, made some of the funniest comic strips you will ever see. I was first exposed to Gross's work in the big Smitsonian Book of Newspaper Comics, which reprinted samples from such works as "Nize Baby"(featuring possibly the earliest example of a 'dysfunctional'family in a humourous continuity), "Dave's Delicatessen" and, of course, the ever-popular "Count Screwloose from Tooloose", still shatterlingly hilarious after nearly 80 years.
(And check out the Count's animated appearance in the MGM cartoon "Jitterbug Follies" at youtube.com, one of two cartoons tha Milt Gross produced himself!!)
Jenny: Thanks for the compliment! I've often thought of doing comic books and I may do something about it soon. What stopped me was the dread of breaking-in. The ground is littered wih the bodies of animation people who couldn't adapt to print media. Come to think of it, this would be a terrific subject for a post so I think I'll reply that way.
ReplyDeleteAbout adapting Gross to animation, it's already been done, as Hammerson pointed out, by Jim Tyre. Tyre was more faithfull to the spirit of Gross' work than Gross himself.
Hammerson: Wow! I wish I could see Shane's analysis! I never joined Shane's site because it relies on Paypal which I assumed was an open book to hackers. Maybe I should reconsider.
Cartoonjoe: Thanks for the tip about the Gross film on YouTube. I just watched it. It was great but suffered from a print media bias. If Gross had stayed with it I'm sure he would have mastered the animation medium. He just needed more time.
Cartoonjoe: I forgot to say that I didn't know Gross worked in animation when he was young! Interesting!
ReplyDeleteI bought "He done her wrong" recently. I noticed how Milt Gross posed the men in some of the drawings as if they were dancing like ballerinas.
ReplyDeleteYou should be making comics, Eddie.
ReplyDeleteOh those sketches are great!
ReplyDeleteWhen will you start selling your sketches, Uncle Eddie? I want to buy one.
Jennifer: Hmmmmm...that's a thought! Let me think about it. Thanks for the compliment!
ReplyDeleteI'd buy an Uncle Eddie sketchbook!
ReplyDeleteA correction: Milt Gross worked for the Barre/Bowers studio animating on Bud Fisher's "Mutt and Jeff" series (this according to my well-worn first-edition copy of Leonard Maltin's "Of Mice and Magic" (1980), an informative but somewhat bias history of American animation {the man DISLIKES Robert McKimson's cartoons...IMAGINE!!}...this pertinent information is on page 13.)
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely right about the bias against print cartoonist regarding Milt's return to animation in the late thirties. After he was forced out, ANOTHER print cartoonist, Harry Hershfiled, was brought in, but his tenure at the studio was even shorter (of course, the MGM animation department was in a state of flux in between the time they fired Harman and Ising and the time the hired....Harman and Ising. Corporations...go figure...)
Oh, and I second what Jenny said...do comics...it's a lot less aggravation, and you have total control (particularly if you publish it yourself...you won't get rich, but you'll have the satisfaction of knowing your original intentions got to the masses undiluted!!)
ReplyDeleteJust a thought...
Sorry, Eddie, I have to dissent. You should be making cartoons, not comics. You should be canonized and worshipped and given everything you need. UCLA film school should make you an honorary professor with a fat stipend to make "research cartoons".
ReplyDeleteSomebody should invest in cartoons the same way they invest in supercolliders. Give them lots of money and leave them alone bacause you can't comprehend the advanced nature of their work.
Failing that, us real cartoon lovers need to organize into something loud and militant until we restore sanity to the universe.
I picked up a 2-dollar Mighty mouse DVD the other day that had 2 Mutt & Jeffs which made me think of Milt Gross (don't know if he was on them) and a Jim Tyer sequence in an early Herman the mouse cartoon. I never knew Tyer worked for Famous. I tried to find some of his Popeyes but I don't think any of those show his trademark loose style. His draftsmanship seems really solid on the Popeyes.
I agree that Eddie should be making cartoons, but that is expensive. If he isn't making cartoons, he should be making comics until he can make a cartoon.
ReplyDeleteRe: the chap leaning over. One of the conventions of vaudeville and burlesque involved comedians leaning over at seemingly impossible angles, especially over the orchestra pit. How was this done? Usually, a nail-head was left protruding slightly above the floor of the stage. The comedian would have a slot in the heel of his shoe. The slot would be slipped over the nail-head, and voila! support for leaning over at crazy angles. Sometimes, of course, the comedian didn't do it right, and a header into the orchestra pit resulted. Not, I suppose, that it mattered.
ReplyDeleteFor what it's worth, I'd commission Eddie to do drawings for some of the stories I write, but one never knows how much Eddie would charge. Or what he'd charge. If it's any help, Eddie, I'm a shareholder of the company that makes Tastykakes.
>> Wow! I wish I could see Shane's analysis! <<
ReplyDeleteI found a part of it on my hard disk, and it can be viewed here. I think Shane posted it couple of years ago, perhaps even on his forum, and not on Cartoon Retro site. Can't find the text part unfortunately, but as far as I remember, Shane was talking about the way Gross directed the viewer's attention from object to object, and panel to panel. That really opened my eyes, and it explained why are his comic pages so clear and perfectly readable. So many today's comic artists should learn from Milt Gross.
...If he isn't making cartoons, he should be making comics until he can make a cartoon.
ReplyDeleteMaybe. But that doesn't get any of us what we really want.
"People for the Ethical Treatment of Animators", maybe?
Would you leave your favorite cartoonist tied up in the back yard, in the hot sun, with nothing to drink? Would you replace him with software?
We gotta stop the madness. We are reaching the point in the curve where cartoons have been eating themselves for longer than they were getting better.
Ive been wanting to start a collection of drawings/art from artists in these blogs. I would love to have an original Eddie F. drawing. Make it happen Eddie.. Do it.
ReplyDeleteI've recently been thinking of turning my work into comics, instead of animation like I'd previously wanted.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWell, Eddie isn't an animator, and in my experience the very best drawings he's done on his storyboards for TV haven't been translated faithfully--a compromise of the system. That's why I say that I'd rather see a story he drew, that he actually drew, rather than a watered-down version that's gone through ink & paint, cleanup etc. I have some experience seeing what happens to his boards, so that's where I come from.
ReplyDeleteFor it to be otherwise he'd have to be running his own in-house animation studio, and that's not a likely possibility, unfortunately.
btw way Eddie! I did know about those couple of Milt Gross MGM cartoons--they're cool as hell but I still prefer the comics, can't say why...I guess I love seeing a drawing like that(and yours)that have movement and humor without needing animation, as we know it--the 24fps kind.
I wonder what ol' Milt was like to have dinner with...wasn't he suposed to be as nuts as his drawings? Bliss! : )
>>For it to be otherwise he'd have to be running his own in-house animation studio, and that's not a likely possibility, unfortunately.<<
ReplyDeleteHey Jenny!
I always wondered this: if all these artists are fed up with the industry, why don't they make their own cartoons on their offtime? You sound like you're in the industry and have some experience to share. The industry is so small, and you probably know who all the good, like-minded people are in it. With so many talented folks, why aren't more toons being made outside the studio environment?!
I'm guessing it has to do with spending time with your family, or something else. Do you just burn out on animation working on it 40 hours a week?
Thanks!
Your pal,
Chris
One of the conventions of vaudeville and burlesque involved comedians leaning over at seemingly impossible angles. . .
ReplyDeleteNot to stray too far from Eddie's wonderful post of Milt Gross, but this book I'm hooked on, Jazz Anecdotes tells this story of trombonistBill Harris under the subject, "Pranks":
One of Harris's schemes never worked out. He had seen vaudeville comics secretly slip special brackets mounted to the soles of their shoes over cleats that had been screwed to the stage floor. Hooked firmly to the stage that way, they would lock their knees and lean about at impossible angles.
Bill (Harris) had Woody (Herman) chasing all over Philadelphia looking for the guy who used to make the cleats. Unfortunately he had passed away. Bill wanted to use them to lean out over the audience while he played his solo on the romantic ballad, "Everywhere."
By the way - One more vote for Eddie comics.
- Corbett
Vanoni: "Jazz Anecdotes" sounds great! I'll look out for it!
ReplyDeleteKatz: A brief answer till Jenny is able: Lots of artists don't get together and make a film of their own because every artist has a different vision. You can't get two artists to agree about anything.
Jenny: Milt Gross acted crazy? I never heard that. Have any stories about it?
Ryan: That's an intereasting idea, samples of art from favorite bloggers. We take blogging for granted but one day it might disappear and people might look back on this time as a sort of internet golden age. Maybe there's an illustrated book to be made on what things were like on the net when it was fast and free.
Hammerson: Thanks again for linking to Shane's analysis. Very interesting!
Eric, Cartoonjoe: Fascinating!
Max, Don't Care, Kali: Thanks!
"I always wondered this: if all these artists are fed up with the industry, why don't they make their own cartoons on their offtime?"
ReplyDeleteHi Chris! Well, frankly the number one answer is: it's a living, bills must be paid, and you gotta eat. ; ) Doing one's own cartoons--let's say, a classical, 7 minute WB-style short with all the trimmings, takes time and money with an entire staff, much less one individual. I'm a storyboard artist, not an animator, nor a cleanup assistant, nor a background painter or a camera owner and operator...I can board out a cartoon but doing an entire one on my own(if I wanted to) would be a fulltime job, and take me a long, long time to finish. Even the great WB guys needed the backing of, well, the Warner Bros and Schlesigner studios.
And I must say--I'm not "fed up" with the industry at all, far from it. I get to draw every day, and I love what I do and my coworkers especially make it a wonderful way to make a living. I've found TV work to be frustrating because of the disconnect that sometimes occurs between the drawings done here and what's on the air a year later, but I also got the opportunity to work on fun stuff and be around some killer talents in TV...I wouldn't trade any of the animation toiling for anything(and I have done other things). So I'm far from fed up and I'd hazard to say that that's also true for most people working in animation, TV and films both: they do it because they DO get satisfaction from it. And it's a decent wage as well. : )
And yes, there are too few hours in a week--add any outside activites, family, hobbies, travel(when you can get time off), and living an all-around life, and there goes the year. As you can see here, Uncle Eddie has a plethora of interests that aren't cartoon-related, at least not directly. I think he's a bit like Burgess Meredith in that Twilight Zone episode where he survivies the end of the world but he's happy because he's alone with ALL the books he could ever read. ; )
P.S. there are guys like Nick Cross who actually do make their own shorts, so what do I know? He must be a hell of an organizer!
-Ha! Eddie, we are online and tapping away at our keyboards in almost perfect sync! Whaddya know? Crossing bandwiths.
ReplyDeleteSay, have you heard from Marlo after her big shindig in FL? I'm wondering how she did.
Jenny: I haven't talked to Marlo since she came back. John showed me a picture of an audience that she colored and it was great! I hope John or Marlo posts it.
ReplyDeleteI hate to say it but I don't see any resemblance between me and Burgess Meredith in the Twilight Zone episode. I don't really read that much, it's just that a lot of people read even less than I do.
Eddie: bollocks! ; D
ReplyDeleteGosh, funny you you mention that particular TWILIGHT ZONE episode...
ReplyDeleteEddie - let's get together! John said you were in my general area.
ReplyDeleteYou can have my copy of Jazz Anecdotes when I'm done with it. (Share and share alike, I always say!)
I have another book you'd like as well.
info@artsyfartsystudios.com
- Corbett
Hye Uncle Eddie !:
ReplyDeleteI Can see why Clampett was influenced by Milt, the 1930s Clampett toons looks simular to Milt's comics. Even in the 1940s, Calmpett still had a hint of 1930s. Also,please take a look at my skecthes Uncle Ed and any comment from you would be nice.
Jenny: Thanks for such an in depth response. 'Fed up' was definitely the wrong word choice and not what I meant. I can see how there really aren't enough hours in the day to do it all, and a job on a show you really like would be completely satisfying!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the insight!
Eddie: Do you have experience with working on projects outside of the studio system that have failed due to diverse interests? I've got a bunch of guys that I'm working with, and I'd love to hear some stories about what worked and what didn't so I can have the benefit of your experience (and to not make the same mistakes twice)!
Vanoni: I ordered the anecdotes book from the library but I think I may already have read it.
ReplyDeleteKatz: Yes, I do have some advice. I learned from experience that a group has to have a leader or nothing gets done.