I imagine that they do, though there are exceptions (like Milt Gross). Anyway, here's (above) a beach cartoon by Don Martin, done when he was fairly young, and another beach cartoon (below) done when he was older. I thought it might be interesting to compare the two to seeif we can isolate the difference that age makes.
Let's see...hmmm...well, the emotions in the top cartoon are more extreme, and the poses are more caricatured. No doubt about it, young people are more judgemental about the people around them. They love to ferret out the phony and roast him over hot coals. Older people have a more live-and-let-live attitude, which is lethal for a cartoonist. Old people need to stop being so tolerant and learn to abhor everybody like young people do.
I notice too that the older Don Martin isn't as touchy-feely as the younger one. The girls in the topmost cartoon are all over the handsome guy. They can't keep their hands off him. And what's that quality in the faces in the older artist's cartoon? Is it intelligence!? What the heck is intelligence doing in the Don Martin universe? Martin characters are supposed to be stupid! We can all learn a lesson here. Cartoonists must constantly be on their guard against the debilitating influence of IQ points.
Here's (above) another example of Don Martin's early style. I'm dying to blow up the drawing of the zombie guy to life size, mount it, and stand it up in my hallway. Boy, nobody can draw stupidity like Don Martin!
Uncle Eddie, that link to Craig Boldman's web site has ruined the layout of your blog, because it's too long. You accidentally linked it through the Google image search, and this should be the correct and much shorter link:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.craigboldman.com/brush/
brushwcraig.html
Thanks for posting Don Martin's stuff. Very interesting observations about the differences between the young and old Martin. I agree that many artists get worse with age, though the later Don Martin's work ain't bad at all (and still on an unreachable level for many cartoonists). Two examples I can think of right now are Chuck Jones and Roy Nelson. Both artists have changed their style rather drastically in the later years, and not for better. And Nelson's work for the last few years of his life is fine, but nearly unrecognizable, compared to the brilliance and genius of his previous stuff.
Oh yeah, and Milt Gross truly reinvented himself and became even more innovative and daring in his last years. But that's a rare exception... most of the cartoonists seem to lose their spark in the old age.
ReplyDeleteWOW, THAT BOTTOM ONE IS DON MARTIN?
ReplyDeletethat must be 100 years old! Anyway, the top one is definately drawn much funnier. A good example of super early martin is his album cover for Miles davis from the early 50s.
Also, Eddie, I put up the Jim Tyer Comic you asked about, its on my first blog.
It's sad, everybody starts to coast when they get older. Wally Wood was just a shadow of his former self around the end, and Charles Schulz was content with drawing golf jokes for the last 20 years of his career after doing his most brilliant work during the 60s and early 70s. Walt Kelly managed to stay first rate through his entire career, I can't think of too many others though.
ReplyDeleteGee Eddie, for a second there I thought that first strip was illustrating the time you dropped in at John's place unexpectedly...
ReplyDeleteIt's a young man's game, baby.
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ReplyDelete- I wrote three comments, but decided to delete them all and put them into one big comment:
ReplyDeleteI wish I could click on the second image but I can't! It's not clickable! Argh! It looks funny too!
That first image though- the last scene with the guy's face stretched- I almost choked laughing! Thanks Eddie for starting my day off right!
"Gee Eddie, for a second there I thought that first strip was illustrating the time you dropped in at John's place unexpectedly..."
They wish! Ha!
I just read the other ones.
When the doctor says, "he has the plague!" And I looked at the drawing I nearly fell off my chair! Thanks again Eddie!
And do cartoonists get worse with age? Not all of them! Some of them get way better or stay the same.
Milt Gross, like you mentioned, Sergio Aragones (and although I'm biased) John's drawings from when he was in his 20s can't compare to what he does now. I'm trying to think of more...I'll come back if I think of more!
Hey Eddie, this kind of reminds me of the old myth that when animators get older, the timing of their animation seems to be slower: Is this true?
ReplyDeleteAnd Graig Boldman is a frickin' genius, no question.
Chuck Jones's early drawings, by his own admission, sucked. He studied nights with Donald Graham, drove himself like a madman over several years and became a master cartoonist, then he let his drawing ability devolve into no neck land with advancing age, the beginning of which can be traced to about June of 1959. It was a Tuesday, I think. But more than mere aging plays into such devolution. I don't think Clampett lost anything, even by age 70 when he passed away.
ReplyDeleteI think an artist can get more polished and mature with age but their early stuff is always more raw and fun. Its not just cartoonists either, have you ever listened to a rolling stones album from the last 20 years? yech!
ReplyDeleteRock is a young person's game. The Stones can't help but come off ludicrous pushing sixty or seventy. Merv Griffin, on the other hand, was more entertaining the richer and fatter he got. He knew he was a joke and milked it. Maybe he really DID have a loverly bunch of coconuts. Only Stevie Wonderboy knew for sure.
ReplyDeleteAnon: My own belief is that a 60 year-old brain is definitely inferior to a 30 year-old brain and that the reason is structural. The older brain just isn't wired right.
ReplyDeleteOlder brains seem to get locked into whatever way they were programmed in youth. There's a resistance to change.
Amazingly, this isn't always a disadvantage. Sometimes older people were formed during a golden age of something that has objective value. I would say the old Roman who still remembered how to read and write and build arches and sewage systems still had something of value to offer younger Visigoths who were living in mud huts.
good point, on a depressing note imagine being someone whos cultural perceptions of the world froze in 1996
ReplyDeleteWhen is old age for a cartoonist?
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that is has less to do with age than the ravages of doing business. I think there is a part of everyone who does anything for a living that asks, "what's the point, anymore"?
How the subconscious responds to this and similar philisophical challenges may result in the trail-off of brilliance we sometimes see.
If you are living a life of jaded resentment and resignation, or ivory tower supremacy, it's bound to come out in what you do.
It may be as much a reponse to life's pressures as it is a geriatric effect. When you can afford to buy a nice house, why go out to a coffee shop and draw people? The best answer may be because it keeps you vital, connected, and relavant, and unafraid that your best work was 30 years ago, and you are only trying to pretend that you are not just a pale imitation of your former self.
Chuck Jones may have sucked when he got older because his industry got pulled out from under him and he could not formulate a meaningful response.
So I'd say that's it. Stay connected to something vital so that what you do still has enough purpose to light that fire in your belly.
Otherwise, you are just getting old, and signing your name to nostalgic scribbles.
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As regards the Stones seeming ridiculous, I'd have to say it's a matter of perception. They make more money on tour than any band, young or old. Their fans are not teenagers anymore and are out of the record buying demographic but they support the live music. That does not rank as failure. The songs most people want to hear are at least 20 years old, and they had reinvented themselves at least a few times already by then. Most bands have to go on a nostalgia tour by that time. As Keith Richards says, nobody complains about blues guys playing until they drop dead.
Bruce: My guess is that oldsters who grew up with slow timing will favor that, and soon-to-be oldsters who grew up with fast timing will favor that, even if it's inapropriate.
ReplyDeleteI love fast timing in projects that can support it, like the best of the early Esurance commercials. I just don't like to see it where it tries to cover up for weak acting and animation.
IDRC: In my opinion what you're saying is half true. Age is still an affliction. Aristotle said that every problem is easier to solve if you break it down into its parts. I think it's important to examine the specific undesirable behaviors we associate with age and see if some of them have a simple solution.
You can lecture and old person who forgets his keys and it won't do much good, but simply giving him a keychain might solve the problem. I wonder if some artistic problems can be solved that way.
Age is an affliction, without a doubt. We are learning, however, that a major component of aging is inactivity and undernourishment.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that you start getting old before you are old, and your attitudes and perceptions are the one major contributing factor that you can control. Your best chance of staving it off is to believe and behave youngly. I think that comes naturally to you. You are old enough to get senior discounts and you are still very funny.
--And you need to stop eating poison. half of the American diet is not food. Young people can get away with eating poison, but by the time you are fifty you really need to stop eating crap and cleanse your system.
Here's an astounding YouTube of Summertime Fun in Tokyo
ReplyDeleteSee ya
Steve
Pizza=poison? LOL.
ReplyDeleteI agree more with i.d.r.c.
There's evidence to suggest that the older brain doesn't learn CERTAIN things as fast or as well as younger brains(particularly infant brains).
There's a flip side, though. An infant might pick up language basics and such with lightening speed but he can't think and analyze them as an adult can, including an older adult. It's a bit of a throwing up of hands to simply say "older people do this and that/think this ay/are fogeys"; it completely depends on which older person. There's ample evidence in the history of man for the idea that the elders in society have a particular, important ability to see things from a wise perspective.
As for artists my personal belief is that if one keeps working-hard-and learning and is surrounded by all kinds and ages of other artists, one's mind can stay quite as keen-or damn close to it-as a man at a seemingly more robust mental age. And there's scientific evidence to back that theory up, too.
Sound observation, young Eddie!
ReplyDeleteI agree with i.d.r.c. The worst threat is complacency.
In your early years you struggle to blaze a trail through the wilds of your own ignorance until you have a clear path you can travel but it's just as important to turn off into the bush again every so often before you find yourself in a rut.
My role model is Maurice Noble. He was 90 when I met him, but he was passionate about art & anything touching on it. He could enthuse rapturously about good art & burn with outrage over crap, especially stupid crap. I don't mean cranky either, but clean pure anger.
I gotta disagree though on one point; age isn't really an affliction if you consider the alternative.
Fact is, death is a gradual process. One day you roll out of bed & a tiny blob of cholesterol jars loose, travels up your bloodstream & clogs a microscopic artery in your brain. Suddenly you're drawing ju-u-ust a little shittier.
There are two interesting examples by which you can test this theory, Eddie: the careers of Herbert Block ("Herblock"), who was active from 1929 to 2001, and Carl Giles, who was active from roughly the early 1940s to about 2000.
ReplyDeleteIn both cases, the artists started out with one style, and gradually evolved their work until they hit a peak, starting roughly 5-10 years after their start. (Herblock won his first Pulitzer in 1941). Over time, a rote reflexiveness can start creeping in both in drawing style and gags, which starts a gradual decline (in Herlbock's case, starting about the late 1970s). Illness can also play a part in causing draughtsmanship to decline, which was very noticeable in the case of Giles' last ten years or so.
Organizations, as well as individuals, can have life cycles. You could apply what you've discussed on Don Martin to MAD Magazine itself. It's amazing how high the magazine shot in the late 1950s and early 1960s. The level of observation and satire is far above what it is today, about 50 years later.
I don't know, I figure it's like sports. As long as your hungry still, you're going to be performing at your best. And as you grow older knowledge replaces some of the sheer natural motivation and you evolve. Where you go from 45 on I don't know. And if you can stay hungry and have a literal motivation/goal, and use that knowledge as well -- well I don't see why there would be a limit or a peak at any early point. Obviously becoming static is a concern, but if you make it a value to not become static then I imagine you can sidestep the majority of the problems.
ReplyDeleteOf course I'm an optimist, so maybe I'm dilluting myself.
Ha! You think that people's MINDS don't change...try going to estate sales and you will find their *decor* doesn't change either! I have been to hundreds of estate sales here in the Glendale/Burbank area and almost all of them still have the shag carpeting, 60's knick knacks, old kitchenware and even medication from the 70's!!! It's true..people sort of get locked into a certain timeframe and they stay there.
ReplyDeleteGreat observations about aging artists..and although this has nothing to do with age per se, some of the later Fred Moore drawings look positively *depressed*...there's a sheet of Mickey drawings where you can feel the sadness/tiredness coming off them. I also think that alot of the Disney artwork that was coming out of the TV studio side in the last 60's into the 70's looked tired and old...uninspired..I always wondered if they were drawn by burnt out older artists.
PS Are my eyes deceiving me..or are you not listed on CartoonBrew anymore?
Cynthia
Steve: Waves of human beings! Fascinating!
ReplyDeleteKali: You're right, John and Sergio mnaged to avoid these problems.
John says the important thing is to constantly be influenced by new heroes. If you do that you'll always feel inferior to the person you're trying to emulate and you'll never be compaicent (spelled right?).
Pappy: Yup! Maurice beat the odds!
EO: I noticed that too. What happened to Mad? Why the sharp decline?
Red: I saw one of Fred Moore's later drawings and it was sad, just like you said. Then again some fans argue that he was near the top of his game, even toward the end. I wonder what the truth is.
Hey, I wasn't able to get to the convention. How did it turn out? Did you get anything good?
>>
ReplyDeleteJohn says the important thing is to constantly be influenced by new heroes. <<
...and life. Stay observant. Don't get stuck in a style rut and merely coast on your flourishes.
Red: I forgot to ask: why are you going to so many estate sales? Is that how you make a living now?
ReplyDeleteAnd about Cartoon Brew: It's true, I'm not on their sidebar now but I'm not sure why.
"Red: I forgot to ask: why are you going to so many estate sales? Is that how you make a living now?"
ReplyDeleteNo, she goes because it's fun and she finds wonderfully insane and sometimes valuable and/or cool stuff, that's why. It's a hobby! Very akin to haunting used bookstores. ; )
Yes, estate sales are a big hobby of mine..it takes alot of sales though, to strike anything good...but half the fun is just poking around in these huge time capsules that are left all over this area...astounding some of the stuff you will find! Especially how "grandma" never changed a thing since 1966!!! A house tells many stories...it's like a three dimensional, interactive walk thru someone's life.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, those older Freddie drawings...specifically that one model sheet of Mickey with his hat and suit on are depressing to look at. Mickey looks so tired and beaten. He "feels" middle age and has lost his youthful zip. I definitely feel that the artist's state of mind ends up on paper.
Cynthia
Anon, Red: Holy Cow! Sorry for the unintended insult!
ReplyDeletePoor Uncle! No offense taken!
ReplyDeleteAgain I presume to speak for Redtango, but I'm postive about that. Also no offense meant in my correction-is going to estate sales for business an insult? Not at all! A lot of people have made very good livings from it and it's an interesting way to spend one's time imho.
Was just trying to be exclamatory the better to be less dry. Or something. :D
Anyway, to use another annoying if apt term: no worries! All is happiness and love. : )
Have another mai tai and a piece of cheese pizza with us!
I think artists can be good when theyre are old if they dont get stuck in their ways.
ReplyDeletePS. Except for The Rolling Stones, old men on stage trying to do quick energetic youthful rock-star movements is comical.Theyre so slow!
On average bands'songs get worse as they get older too-maybe because of all the drugs frying the synapses.
An insult? No way! I hadn't even thought about that!!!! Alot of antique dealers make a living getting to those sales way before opening time and snatching up stuff they immediately resell. Some people do indeed make a living..for me, it's sort of a relaxing hobby to do on Saturday mornings.
ReplyDeleteI have had some brief moments where I have found some items that..well, only geeks like me would know are valuable, and have pulled in some good bank on EBay. People come and tear thru the stuff early, leaving alot of untouched and worthy items behind..so by about 11 am I show up to pick thru the remains. I am sometimes surprised at what is left behind.
I WISH I could make a living off of sales but...to heck if anyone or anything is going to drag my butt out of bed before 6 am!!!
PS On the subject, Don Martin and Al Jaffe were my fav MAD artists...I loved how Martin would flap over the top of the shoes when someone was walking. Al Jaffe always did beautifully rendered drawings of people throwing up and sneezing..I loved those.
Cynthia
Cynthia: Interesting! I never went to those sales because I assumed they'd be all picked over by the time I got there.
ReplyDeleteA classic example is that man with the other Blog who made those Ren and Stimpy Cartoons. Back then he was like the 2nd coming of christ. Then he made those shitty, distasteful, outrageously homosexual Adult Cartoons. Unsurprisingly his pitiful attempt was cancelled after one laughable season. Classic Example
ReplyDeleteInteresting question.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I love Disney, one thing I've always believed is that by the 1960's, the animators' drawings were getting much stiffer. I much prefer the round bouncy designs from the late 30's/early 40's, and maybe some of their 50's designs than the stiff rough-edged designs of the 60's and 70's.
This is where John would be correct about the flaw in the old timers passing their gifts down to the youngins.