MAGNOLIA: "Hey, how do I get to be a Philosophy Girl? I wanna hang out with you girls and talk about....you know, philosophy and stuff."
MILDRED: "Well, it would help if you were a utilitarian like us. You know, the greatest good for the greatest number?"
MAGNOLIA: "Utilitarian!?? Pffft! That's so yesterday's news! Who decides what's good? What if slave owners decided?"
DAISY: "Well, I guess you'd need some way to decide what's good before you could be a utilitarian."
PETUNIA: "Haw! Well then why do we need Utilitarianism? It can't stand alone! By itself it lapses into absurdity! If killing an orphan results in the greatest good, then by all means, kill the orphan! And who defines good? Hitler? Stalin? Utilitarianism has no objective principals!
SUNFLOWER: "It kinda feels like Utilitarianism only works in a society where there's a tradition that says what's good."
SNAP-DRAGON: "I still like Utilitarianism. I mean, what else have we got? Gee, I'm getting itchy!"
VIOLET: "Me too! Reggie, be a good guy and scratch my back will ya?"
MAGNOLIA: "Hey, how do I get to be a Philosophy Girl? I wanna hang out with you girls and talk about....you know, philosophy and stuff." 
MAGNOLIA: "Utilitarian!?? Pffft! That's so yesterday's news! Who decides what's good? What if slave owners decided?"
DAISY: "Well, I guess you'd need some way to decide what's good before you could be a utilitarian."
PETUNIA: "Haw! Well then why do we need Utilitarianism? It can't stand alone! By itself it lapses into absurdity! If killing an orphan results in the greatest good, then by all means, kill the orphan! And who defines good? Hitler? Stalin? Utilitarianism has no objective principals!
VIOLET: "Me too! Reggie, be a good guy and scratch my back will ya?"
Aaaaargh! My eyes are bleeding! I can't see! I can't see! Aaaaaaaah!!
ReplyDeleteSeriously, Eddie, was there an error in uploading this post? I didn't get any text or title, just pictures.
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
ReplyDeleteThis comment is slightly off-topic, but it's a little on the serious side.
This is for all the posters who are located in LA (including Uncle Eddie and the "animation posse") - I hope that all of you are doing well and I hope that you are not affected by the wildfires that are ravaging SoCal right now. Stay safe.
-- Jennifer
Obviously, not everyone is cut out for a career as a philosophy girl. Thank you for screening your applicants thoroughly in advance. In the the future, please do us all a favor and keep this part of the process PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL, thank-you.
ReplyDeleteHi Uncle Eddie!
ReplyDeleteSimply out of blind curiosity, I'd like to see what the philosophy girls have to say about objectivism some time -- since they mentioned objectivity in this discussion.
YAAAAAY! This is definitely what my day was lacking (until now)!
ReplyDeleteTHANKS EDDIE!
ps- I miss you!
Eddie, your slip is showing.
ReplyDeleteWho can say no to Reggie?
ReplyDeleteToday's air quality was the worst in memory thanks to the smoke. These fires were huge and San Diego county was hit really hard.
ReplyDeleteLevel with us, Eddie. You also have a notorious "Theory Couch" don't you? Still, I can see that your selection process can be rather grueling some days. You're a better man than I, Gunga Din...
ReplyDeleteLester: Thanks for the warning! I just hit the wrong button. I've done that a few times lately. I'm so rushed these days! I'll try to slow down and do it right.
ReplyDeleteJennifer: Thanks! No one I know has taken fire damage.
Kent: If you're reading this, don't hesitate to call me if the fire gets close! 'Hope the film debut went well!
Stiff: I'm not an objectivist but I've read all of Rand's books. She used to live near me on Tampa in the West Valley. In fact I think that's where she wrote "The Fountainhead."
Kali: I miss you too! Let's film something this weekend!
Pete, John A: LOL!.
Haha!!! Crazy photos!
ReplyDeletedamn. this was good. all the better with durante doing his thang.
ReplyDeletenot sure if you stumbled upon it, but earlier this year i gave a joke-defense of utilitarianism for an ethics class. it did not do well.
have i said this before?: you shoulda been some kinda teacher. i mean, philosophy-wise, or something.
I check your blog 1st thing every morning when I get into work! I must say, I lost my desire for breakfast today!!! yeeeck.
ReplyDeleteHow the hell did YOU research these photos? Your picture search must have been hilarious!
My favorite is LARRY (Sunflower).
oh the snap-dragon lady... hahahaha... now that's one down-to-earth, sensible girl both in her views and clothing, thx uncle edddie..hahahaha
ReplyDelete"I'm not an objectivist but I've read all of Rand's books. She used to live near me on Tampa in the West Valley."
ReplyDeleteWow, that means she was living in this Richard Neutra House
Sadly, it was demolished long ago.
But, no, that's not where she wrote The Fountainhead. She moved there in 1944, as a result of Hal Wallis (I think it was) getting interested in her as a screenwriter as a result of the book's success.
BTW, I agree with Petunia. Utilitarians have no independent standard of what's good. For them, what's good is simply every one getting whatever they want, as far as that's physically possible. The problem with that is, as she points out, that people can want some pretty bad things. ... Boy, those girls sure can philosophize!
ReplyDeleteThe girls bring up an interesting point. If we had a definition of "good" or even a tradition of "good" we could agree on we'd be way ahead of the game.
ReplyDeleteI can't even be consistent, myself. I suspect that my happiness in the short term threatens my happiness in the long term. On the other hand, I might die at any time & I'm not getting any better looking.
And doesn't "good" eventually come down to somebody's happiness? This is an instinct that rewards the organism for behaviors proven to aid the perpetuation of its species in the ancestral environment. Since we don't live there any more, where does reason intercede?
After a couple of years in prison, Jerry Lewis in a dress might start to look "good".
lester and Uncle Eddie,
ReplyDeleteAyn Rand may have written 'Atlas Shrugged' at the Neutra house in Northridge. She sold it in 1963 and it was torn down in 1972 because the elderly woman who then owned it lived in Santa Barbara and feared Manson Family clones might make the abandoned structure their headquarters. Today dozens of huge McMansions sit on that tract of land, just east of Tampa Blvd.
I think this post confirms Eddie's thoery tht women are just men with long hair, and not just on top of their heads, it would seem...
ReplyDeleteI think before a society is created, it needs statement or constitution of principles that say what good is, define it clearly, and then practice Utilitarianism. But, there also needs to be consequences for those who who against the principles.
The Founding Fathers of America has a great consitution but they didn't settle their disagreements before putting it into writing. If Jefferson and Adams had figured out whether or not they wanted a Federalist or non Federalist government, the country would probably have been better off.
Of course, historical perspective helps.
Sorry, I see I put in the wrong URL above for the Tampa Road house. If I'm lucky, this one will work.
ReplyDeletehas this already been mentioned: in terms of the "what IS good" dealio, the big flaw everyone likes to mention is that you can use utilitarianism to support nazism.
ReplyDeletebentham always went to back to idea of community. & hey if people are suffering...
Lester, Anon: You probably know more about this than I do. I was under the impression that she was a screen writer first, then she wrote The Fountainhead. Maybe I got it wrong. Maybe Atlas was written at that house. Holy Cow, if that's true, there should be a monument there!
ReplyDeleteI love the Fountainhead novel, by the way. I dreaded coming to the end because I knew I'd probably never see its like again, and I haven't.
Thanks for the Neutra picture. I think I'll pay a visit to the site. Anon, did you say the house was East of Tampa? I was guessing it was somewhere around the Porter Ranch library.
Jose: I remember you saying you were going to talk to the class about Utilitarianism but I don't remember if you ever wrote about the outcome. What went wrong?
Jorge: True. Utility is a valuable and useful idea but it's not the whole solution. Not so far as I can see at least.
I have a feeling that if Mill were alive today that he'd come up with a good answer to the nazi/slaveholder criticism. Maybe he already did. It's been a while since I read him.
right, i probably did mention it before. it was a talk i had to do early this year.
ReplyDeletei wrote about it over on my blog. it was just after the introduction lecture to the philosophy.
my week was on debating Utilitarianism. the talks that week had to do with the section in Mill's text about the sanctions he writes, why to follow it, etc.
don't know what went wrong. post-middle aged ladies (who looked similar to the Durante photos) can't take joke, maybe.
i'm trying to recall if Peter Singer ever said anything about the "Nazi problem" in this philosophy. His utilitarian views always got a heap of criticism from all different groups. Singer himself was accused & compared to having Nazi views. Although untrue. Controversial, maybe.
ReplyDeleteBut with Nazism & slavery, I think it all goes back to what Bentham (also Mill?) said about importance of happiness in life. Avoiding pain, seeking pleasure. If people are suffering because of slavery, etc, it doesn't work. It doesn't fit under Utilitarianism, right?
I'm probably outta my league, I only scraped the surface with this stuff in class.
And hey, for more discussion in theory corner: there's always Utilitarian discussion related to euthanasia or abortion. Can o' worms.
You have to remember that Mill believed in the Harm Principle (you can basically do what you want so long as you do not harm another). Nazism obviously presented a serious harm, one that I don't think any benefit would get Mill to countenance.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Mill did say that some pleasures are qualitatively different than others, but that's much less defensible.
Interesting discussion nonetheless!
Eddie:
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that Utilitarianism can't be any better than the principles of a society & the will to preserve them. We have theories of good & bad on which we base laws, but laws & moral systems are still human artifacts based on consensus & evolve over time.
In our modern economy, we hold slavery to be immoral. In Socrates' time it was a basic necessity if there was to be leisure time to pursue such things as philosophy. There's no agreement today that there even is such a thing as moral instinct or if, conversely morality comes from God & is enshrined in His Laws. Either way Law is going to be imperfect.
Copernicus concluded that the earth revolved around the sun by a collection of small truths revealed by scientific observation. Mathematics showed that it was necessarily so. The law of his day said that the sun revolved around the earth based on moral principle.
When the Soviets collectivised agriculture they believed they were working for the common good & that the ends justified the means. 11 million people died in a failed experiment because Communism was guided by the moral principle of equal rights for all & the faith that a moral precept could be turned into a scientific principle.
Law starts with moral conclusions & ends with puzzling questions. Science starts with puzzling questions & ends with scientific conclusions.
Snurp: Holy Cow, I completely forgot about that! Thanks for mentioning it!
ReplyDeletepappy: Good point!