When you talk to some animation writers you think they're viewing you the same way you view them, but that's a mistake. Every species sees the world through different eyes and that makes a difference.
Animation writers don't have compound eyes (yet) but the difference in vision is just as drastic. They also hear things differently.
You no doubt see yourself as reasonable and practical. I hate to say it, but that's not the way you are viewed. 
When you start to speak the image degrades to something like the one above. This artist might be saying something like "There's not enough jokes in this script! If it's boring to draw then what makes you think the audience will want to see it!?" The writer hears only gibberish. 
You might ask the writer, "Why are there so many characters in this show? Do they all have to be on screen at the same time? Why do I see the same characters in every series: the inventor, the minority computer whiz and the girl who can out think and outfight any boy? Why all the cliches?" The writer hears only, "Whine, whine! Grumble, grumble!"
The problem is that some writers can't write anything but that type of story. Take that away from them and they'd be out of a job. Another type of writer can can do better but they simply chose not to. They're freelancing on two other shows and cliches are easier to write quickly. These types are definitely not interested in listening to complaints by artists.
The artist says, "Why can't cartoonists write some of these shows? We know what draws well, you guys are just guessing! At least let the show have a real artist/director who can hire his own writers." The writer hears only gibberish again. 
The artist says, "These scripts are way, way too long! I have to work overtime for free to do pages that'll just be thrown in the wastebasket for length. Gimmie a break will ya?" The writer hears, "I'm too lazy to do these extra pages, which I admit are fine examples of the writer's art. Can I use your couch?"
The frustrated cartoonist storms out of the writer's office believing that the primal image of his manly, angry back will compel the writer to have remorse. That's not what the writer sees.
HAHAHA, i love how animation writers are of another species!
ReplyDeleteBTW, Eddie, thank you so so so so much for watching my video! Marlo told me she should you guys and you all got a kick out of it (and the music)! thank you!!
Hmmm. Do you suggest a place where I might look for an opposing viewpoint, for balance (at the same level of tongue-in-cheek satire)?
ReplyDeleteI agree with some of your points (especially re crowds and cliches), but as someone who can't draw (but wishes he could) and writes, it would be interesting to see a good, solid, thought-out reply.
Hate to break it to you but the real power has been out of the writers' hands for years in tv animation. Hunt down the development execs if you have an empty stomach. That's a species worthy of your contempt.
ReplyDeleteNice little insight to the industry... I'm reminded of the commentary to Powdered Toast Man where PTM launches himself from a toaster on a low table, and the debate over the logistics of this.
ReplyDeleteHilarious pics, too, as usual.
Trying to argue with a writer is like arguing with a teacher. Even if they don't know what the hell it is they want you to do they get to be right.
ReplyDeleteyoure dead on there. Even when the writer isnt a hack this is true. Theres a bunch of comedians and comedy writers I admire that have went on to make terrible animated series.
ReplyDeleteThe worst is when some teenybopper pop artist mentions an animated series as just another way of "expanding their brand" along with perfume and a fashion line. Even Gene Simmons has his own animated show.
Part of the problem is that even if the creator has good intentions, they know nothing about art and assume that the animation studio the network pairs them with knows what theyre doing. How many times have you heard a creator speak with awe about the "incredible artists working on the show" and the animation is worse than scooby doo?
Since animators are now sitting below the chefs and valets in network execs eyes the only hope is that a genuinely talented comedy writer gets a deal that also happens to have a real understanding and appreciation of cartoons or is good friends with someone like John K and lets them run the animation and storyboarding
You're giving them too much credit.
ReplyDeleteIt's more like tapeworms listening to mammals begging them to crawl out of their butts to eat fresh food that they caught themselves.
lol great toon at the top! You should do a post on the far side one of these days
ReplyDeleteIts not just hacky writers this applies to, a bunch of writers from seinfeld went on to write the dilbert show and we all know how that turned out
ReplyDeleteHi Eddie
ReplyDeleteI'm not a cartoon writer, but you can use my couch any time you want.
Steve
my only problem with artists is that theyll forgive something with horrible lame writing if its well drawn and flatout dismiss crudely drawn stuff with hilarious writing.
ReplyDeleteI mean the artists that dismiss classic episodes of the simpsons as trash i dont have very much time for
EDDIE!! I juSt saw Mildred Pierce! It was brilliant! Brilliant! One of the best films I've ever seen! Way better than any modern movies! Thanks for recomending it!
ReplyDeleteWHOOOO HOOOOOOOO!!!
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-11/28/content_745040.htm
ReplyDeleteI'm eternally grateful that you and John are around to elucidate what non-cartoonist animation fans like myself (and the general populace) felt about crappy animation, but didn't understand on a cause-and-effect level.
ReplyDeleteIt eventually makes one realize that deferring too much to "the writers" can destroy ANY entertainment medium, except maybe novels!
It's too easy to over-intellectualize everything in words. Norma Desmond was right.
zeus is worthless
ReplyDeleteWell, I think you've got some real fine points in there Uncle Eddie. If funny short cartoons were best when made in the mode of the 40's then maybe we should head back to that. Let the half hour action adventure cartoons develop in their way--they still need work so maybe they could try to start at the 40's too.
ReplyDeleteBut how? It can't be a case of "Gee, just do them right!" There are too many people and variables around.
So what's a good answer to your question of what to do? It's not just a humorous list of grievances against the workplace. It is hilarious! But it is also a question.
I'd like us to think about an answer... I'm not in the LA studio system, so I have no practical experience there to be too much use. But how about having an artist on the writing team? or getting writers out with the artists or something. Have potato sack races at lunch. Jello wrestling with Sherri Stoner.
http://comics.com/comics/moderatelyconfused//index.html
ReplyDeleteanimation writers think this comic is funny
The problem is that theyre using the Henry ford method of production which is fine if youre making a toaster but not for creative stuff.
ReplyDeletehave you seen the alan partridge show?
ReplyDeleteThis is fantastic. Non-artists in general seem to think artists are from another planet.
ReplyDeleteKris said...
ReplyDelete"This is fantastic. Non-artists in general seem to think artists are from another planet."
Well that can be said about most differences between people. The line between artists of the written word and artists of graphic representation is a funny one. It's just a short fence. We're all about the same thing. A little free expression and money for dinner. The line between creatives and the administrators is perhaps what Kris was talking about.
Cartoonists and writers have to remember that they both sit at a long table in a hall called Art. So it's up to all of us to figure out just how the hell to ask for the salt.
PS-Eddie! This space of days between posts is going to work great! Gives us all time to really weigh in! And great topic.
Hah! Awesome image accompaniment as always!
ReplyDeleteI LOVE the point you made about Cliches! It seems the "WHITE MALE" is the only guy left for writers to use as the Slack-jawed,DumbASS PUNCHING BAG! It's in EVERY TV commercial and sitcom. All the minoritys and women have ALL THE ANSWERS while the stupid "white Male" stands there scratching his head!
ReplyDeleteIf I see one more Black Female Handicapped Supreme Court Judge depiction, I will eat a bullet!
Why is this done? Who is this help? Does this really make anyone feel better about themselves? WTF?
>>The problem is that theyre using the Henry ford method of production which is fine if youre making a toaster but not for creative stuff.
ReplyDeleteThat system of production resulted in the most creative cartoons ever made.
The system they're using now should hope to be as good as the assembly line system. It isn't.
I want to be an animation writer...
ReplyDeleteAnd I fully expect the cartoonists to thank me for bringing much-needed structure to their unrefined brain-poop.
Alex: If you can bring the kind of stucture that's needed then fine, I wish you the best of luck! The problem is that a lot of writers impose a structure that's not needed.
ReplyDeleteYou have to write a story that will exploit the strengths and avoid the weaknesses of the particular director and artists who will execute it.
>>I want to be an animation writer...
ReplyDeleteAnd I fully expect the cartoonists to thank me for bringing much-needed structure to their unrefined brain-poop.<<
I've never met an animation writer (who doesn't draw) that had any feel for structure. Or character, or humor for that matter.
Cartoon writers are created from a string of false assupmptions and conclusions.
If you can't draw and you are standing inside an animation studio, then you must be a writer, and therefore you understand story structure.
If you CAN draw, then you couldn't possibly write or understand story structure, because nobody in the world can have 2 talents at the same time.
If there were any logic in this, there would be no composers, choreographers, or film directors.
Mike Maltese, Warren Foster, Tex Avery, Walt Disney, Bill Peet, Bob Clampett, Dave Fleischer and the others who built our industry with their cartoon characters and stories never existed.
Is there no solution for this? :(
ReplyDeleteWhen I started reading this post I expected a great solution how to deal with "them" :p
I think the biggest divide between writers and artists is in the medium itself. My personal friends that are writers are pretty spacey. They don't draw so they've never had their imagination smacked down by reality. In the universe inside their head two objects can occupy the same space at the same time, but as soon as they would have to put that on paper in the form of a drawing they would realize it's impossible.
ReplyDeleteThe reverse is true too they don't realize what's really easy to do in a drawing that isn't in words.
I had witnessed this relationship first hand when two of my close friends, one a writer, and the other an artist collaborated on a comic. The writer had no idea the time involved in drawing a single page of the comic. He had no idea that some of his complicated scenes don't translate well to comic panels. And he had these elaborate passages of dialog that established the relationship of two characters that would require pages that could be summed up in a single panel with the characters' facial expressions. They would get into arguments over these sorts of things.
What I learned by being a fly on the wall to that situation is let writers write and conjure up images inside people's heads... that's what they're good at ( or at least should be ), but keep them out of anything that requires translation of images from mind to physical reality.
They can inspire artists at most, but giving them creative authority is really... really... really stupid.
by henry ford method i meant everyone working exclusivley on different parts of a cartoon with no communication or collaboration with anyone ouse
ReplyDeleteThere has been a tendency recently for artists to automatically assume they cannot write their own stories because they see so many double by-lines. I contend that any man who can invent pictures can invent situations and dialogue. In fact, it should be easier for the artist to pilot his own action because he is not likely to write himself into one of those undrawable dilemmas in manuscripts about which illustrators have complained for years. --Milton Caniff
ReplyDeleteI agree with all this completely but the main argument always seems to be "We could make amazing cartoons if it wasnt for moron cartoon executives that give all the development deals to no talent hacks"
ReplyDeleteObviously the only way around this is the diy method, noones stopping you from making cartoons on your own. Just do the bare minimum amount of soul sucking commercial work you need to survive and spend the rest animating your own stuff
Eddie:
ReplyDeleteWhat a gift to see yourself as others see you. I love these pictures!
eric o:
What would lead you to think that this post was less than balanced?
Before he'd decided on an animation career, a college friend of mine was studying to be a veterinarian. Toward the end of his first year, he realised that it wasn't for him, because he just loved animals too much to deal with their suffering every day.
I wonder if it's the same with real writers. If you have something to say, if you're motive is to entertain people, writing for TV animation is probably not for you. If, on the other hand, you want a sit-down job out of the hot sun in a clean environment, simple rules to follow with little pressure to be creative, it fills the bill nicely.
You can devote your meager talent to your job & put your real genius into your lifestyle (paraphrasing fig. 3). You'll have a nice car, dress just like a successful writer & there are plenty of girls in this town who haven't heard that old one about the Polish starlet.
Maybe I'm being uncharitable. It's not so different from the 3rd world person who can make $40/month stitching blouses or $50/month inbetweening. It's a no-brainer, so what's a brain for?
It makes me wonder why artists are involved at all. We just get in the way.
When I worked for John D at R-S, we used physical humor against the writers. It didn't help the product, of course but they moved all the artists out & up the road to our own little clubhouse. It helped to be able to ignore them & now we had a couch, too.
Adam, sounds like your writer friend was learning something way new. That's always frustrating and a little exhilarating.
ReplyDeleteThere seems to be an idea of writers as ineffective in the business of pictures. I don't think that is so. Experienced writers can be very good at it. Screen writers are. Read some scripts and the visual power of the written script comes through.
So it sounds like inexperienced, or improperly experienced, writers in need of a dose of humility are the problems.
Aside from the normal problems in working with other humans issues like this could become more bearable with some open minded humility among the workers.
That said... show the world it can be done on time, at par, and on budget by getting some friends together and making a short by yourselves.
Part of the original reason for television shows being so dialogue heavy was that the picture quality on televisions has been absolutely horrible compared to theatres for most of the mediums existence.
ReplyDeleteIts easy to forget that during the golden age of animation television didnt exist and all cartoons were shown up on the big screen.
In sitcoms the writer actually IS more important than the storyboard artist and directors who are basically glorified technicians since all of the 'animation' is done by the actors.
Since animation studios are now owned by the huge media conglomorates that also make sitcoms they assume that the sitcom format works for cartoons, I dont think i have to explain why this isnt the case.
When the writing and voice acting is first rate a passable product still can happen despite crude artwork as in shows like Beavis and Butthead and the first 8 seasons of the simpsons.
Applying the sitcom method to cartoons is like replacing the actors in sitcoms with mannequins on puppet wire
Ive heard in terms of working for a studio,the writers actually get paid vastly more money than the actual animators.Can anyone confirm this?
ReplyDeleteAs a writer who can half-ass draw, I find this type of post (both here and on John K's blog) fascinating.
ReplyDeleteI know that in every other branch of tv and film writing, the writer is the ultimate whipping boy. This situation has improved in tv somewhat, thanks to wunderkinds like JJ Abrams, Joss Whedon, et. al. But your run-of-the-mill writer is, for the most part, still viewed as a "hack for hire." In animation, I suspect writers have finally found a domain to rule. What you and John K describe -- the way writers treat animators -- sounds very much like how producers and directors (and even talent!) have treated writers in live-action.
I have two questions: 1) What do you consider the role (if any) of a writer in animation?
2) Are there any examples of (in your opinion) good animation writers?
Great post.
"Ive heard in terms of working for a studio,the writers actually get paid vastly more money than the actual animators.Can anyone confirm this?"
ReplyDeleteYes thats true up here in canada at least. Writers can get like 20 grand for some crappy teletoon script while animators make like 800 a week if theyre lucky
"The artist says, "These scripts are way, way too long! I have to work overtime for free to do pages that'll just be thrown in the wastebasket for length."
ReplyDeleteNo truer words were ever spoken!
Cynthia
Steve Schnier: I'm sorry that I offended you but if you disagree you should do it with argument rather than insult.
ReplyDeleteThere are lots of hack artists but I don't go after them as frequently as writers because their impact on the industry isn't as great. Besides, they're not moving into writers' domains and trying to dominate them, the way writers do to us.
I hope you'll continue to read and post here. I have a feeling that you're not the type of writer I was criticizing.
Several commenters: Live action does put a lot of empasis on the script and I have no problem with that. Animation's different but making a case for that would require a whole post. I'll do that when I'm able.
I just saw this quote and thought I'd drop it here:
ReplyDelete==================
but as God said,
crossing his legs,
I see where I have made plenty of poets
but not so very much
poetry.
from “to the whore who took my poems”