In my opinion recent cartoons are too heavily edited, even when the editing is done by the cartoonist/creator himself. Now that editing is easy and can can be done on a laptop every shot in a cartoon is edited and re-edited til it's considered perfect. That may enhance the filmic quality but it diminishes the sense of preformance and risk. Some cartoons give me a case of "smoothitis."Easy edits also tend to increase the number of cuts. We all know films that benefited from frequent cuts but I bet I can point to an equal number that were hurt by it. Fred Astaire used to cut his dance scenes as little as possible and it's easy to see why. It's the same reason that magicians on screen resist too many cuts. The audience assumes that the cuts cover up mistakes or chicannery. They think cuts make the performance easier, too easy in fact, and they paid to see somebody do something that's difficult.
On a related subject, I'll add that quirky motion sometimes adds to the appeal of a scene. Some of the jerky stop-motion on Harryhausen's best scenes (I emphasize the words "some" and "best") actually improved the fantasy. It gave the monsters an unreal, unearthly style of movement that fit the story. Cartoon animation works the same way. Nobody wants jerky animation but we want to see some near misses, some last-minute saves, some cheats that give us an idea of how difficult it is to move this stuff. We want to see a first-rate animator's struggle. Hemingway wrote that nobody can appreciate a good bullfight til they've seen a bad one. That applies to what we do. Let's stop being so slick!
87 comments:
I completely agree. Like the new pirates of the carribbean; aside the point that I couldn't understand the story, they just had too much money. Every scene was so heavily textured that I couldn't appreciate the framing anymore. Also the non-CG bootstrap character looked poo compared to the rest of the CG crew. But the CG was so clean that I could't appreciate it anymore. There is so much more to complain about, but it aint worth it! All in all it was like a thousand bats in my face and I have no idea what happened back there in the cinema!
sorry, I'm on a rant here:
Or, take Indiana Jones for example; REAL bugs and melting faces WHOA!
OHOH and also Jim Henson. Full length movies of foam puppets that can't even pull face expressions! genius! Ok, I'm going a bit off topic here, but I guess I'm just trying to point things out that lie on the brink of real grit (foam puppet) and magic (whatever that is). I guess we just want the grit back to contrast with the magic.
Editing tools are hurting live action films as well. Everything has gotten to feel like a hyper kinetic commercial with a violent pace and no real sense of drama.
I think many directors think of themselves as Orson Welles out to put the world on its ear with Citizen Kane. The difference is that Welles (and his editor Robert Wise) knew that the editing was subservient to the story.
Perhaps animation directors should remember this as well.
Couldn't agree more. It's easy to do slick animation, but without that rawness you lose so much. It feels less honest. Even the slick, coloured clean up line, and tones and highlights used on most 2d movies is a bit too much for me. It's like they are trying to hide the mistakes, but in the meantime, they hide the performance. That's part of the reason I loved Iron Giant so much. It just felt real. I don't know if I'm off topic, but I think the same mistakes are happening with editing as they are with just over polishing the entire production. You lose something.
I'll never forgive Lucasfilm for the 'all-CG' Yoda in the last 2 Star Wars films. And the 'all-CG' Clone Troopers. And everything else CG in those movies. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Star Wars, but Episode III was a disappointment - it was like watching an animated CG feature with real actors thrown in here and there.
Back in the early days of Looney Tunes / Merrie Melodies when Leon wanted their films to be exactly 6 minutes down to the frame (not one frame over or under) they editted the stories to fit that length in the storyboard stage. They managed to edit their cartoons down to 1/3 of a second before any film was actually shot. This is what made all the directors there so great at their jobs. They could pace all their cartoons perfectly and quickly but without it looking artificially smooth as it does with modern editting machines.
Truly, this kind of cartoon making is a lost art that should be revived again for the sake of the medium.
I think moviemakers use so many cuts now a days is because we've all been trained to register and have gotten used to an over abundance of action. Just look at the intro to the Bourne Supremecy. There's probably a different cut every second for about 2 minutes. People couldnt register this kind of information 40 years ago and moviemakers wouldnt want to do this anyway. Even in a 30 second commercial, theres over 30 shots to sell a product. Its the whole generation x, MTV, in your face, extreme to max, over the top attitude that people need to be stimulated for absolutly every possible second... Or thats what moviemakers think..
All these new software programs make it so easy to fake something that it allows amateurs into businesses that used to take talent, years of experience and skill.
Nothing can replace knowing how your craft actually works, by learning from the ground floor up.
Now anybody can make films, cartoons, design cars, houses, VCRs.
Software has caused all the original functions of everything to be lost and is part of why everything is so bland, artless and without meaning or sensory pleasure today.
Last night, Mike and I were in Meltdown being comic book geeks and they were playing "The Adult Swim Rap" which was a double sin - a non musical form of music about a non-cartoony form of cartoon.
Music and cartoons that can be made by anybody who can afford the software. There are no instruments to play and you don't need to be able to draw, if you just load someone else's model sheets into the computer and slide them around in Flash.
Mike started to get into an argument with the cashier guy.
"Do we get a discount for having to listen to this crap?"
"I wasn't aware that there was anything bad about it, sir." said the nerdy gay 18 year old comic collecting african american guy.
I crawled out of there dragging Mike with me, who ranted for a couple hours afterwards about wanting to go back and teach the young lad a lesson about culture!
I sometimes regret never having the opportunity to physically cut and splice film. On the other hand, it sounds like a nightmare. But it forces you to actually think about what you're doing, instead of trying a million variations and not knowing if one is better than the other.
At school, all I see kids doing is the Epileptic Seizure style of editing. When did more+faster=better? I blame crack! All the kids are on crack and need 100mph stream of images to clog their brains with saturated numbness.
I've also seen young editors steal wonderful techniques from veterans and mangle their ideas. One student used Leni Riefenstahl's Olympia style of editing swimmers backward and forward into each other for a an epileptic car commercial -HOLY CRAP you destroyed the whole idea, good job moron.
I'm aware of how easy it is for someone like myself to make something with millions of programs and tutorials online at my disposal. My wariness of becoming such a buffoon in this technological goodiland might hinder me against my peers, but I think if they watch all the crap that they make on tv, in the movies etc. versus studying what came before that and how it got there will only hold them back. But in that same light, if I don't embrace what, or at least understand what is going on today, I guess I'm just as lost as them.
Eddie are you familar with the book "in the blink of an eye" by walter murch?( he cut american graffiti,apocalypse now, and english patient)
it talks about what a cut IS, it's the end of an idea,the period on a sentence. It's the "blink" in film. just as when your looking at one thing, and you turn to look at something else, you instinctively blink.In illusion of life they tell you to put a blink on a head turn, but they dont' tell you why. Your refocusing, your brain is rebooting your visual cortex for a new picture. its some thing murch noticed was when he was editing on a steenbeck (because its realtime editing), when he felt he should cut, the actor would blink or begin to blink. The book is also interesting as he was one of the first to edit a major hollywood film digitally, and he has a great perspective on what are the benefits and hazards of the new way vs. the old way of editing.
Director/film editor Edward Dmytryk wrote arguably (everything cited on any blog must be argued) the most useful book on rudimentary editing theories (like when to cut from one shot to another - he states it's when a walking character's eye on exiting a scene reaches the edge of the frame). Dmytryk's book on editing ("On Film Editing") is better than the one on the same subject penned by director Karel Reisz and is also superior to his own book on film directing, which tends to discuss making deals and handling movie stars. And Leni Riefenstahl probably would never had gotten the opportunity to do the groundbreaking cinematic things she did had she not been fucking Hitler. On the upside, the Nazi casting couch was likely designed by Albert Speer and is today owned by Michael Jackson.
John, you were too nice to that cashier punk!
He accused me of being racist for not admiring hip-hop – despite the fact that the musical forms I do admire (jazz, blues and gospel, just to name three) are all equally ethnic in origin. The big difference is they’re musical!
(What music form is more racist [and sexist] than rap, anyway? I don’t remember Patsy Cline singing about niggas, bitches and ho’s. How did hip-hop culture claim the moral high ground with their track record?)
It sounds like a meaningless argument about taste, but there’s actually something bigger at stake here. An entire generation is in danger of becoming irrelevant, because they’ve embedded themselves in comfortable cocoons of cultural illiteracy.
Being uncultured is one thing, that would be bad enough - but being aggressively anti-culture is another matter entirely. Smug, artless and uninformed is no way to go through life, (to paraphrase Dean Wormer.)
To Eddie’s point: gimmicky digital editing won’t hide bad filmmaking, any more than gimmicky techno effects hide lack of musical ability – but try explaining that to a modern executive, an empty suit inhabiting a soulless, corporate void.
(By the way - Hemingway was right, but not in the way he assumed. I'd much rather see a “bad” bullfight than a good one any day. I’m always rooting for the bull!)
"To Eddie’s point: gimmicky digital editing won’t hide bad filmmaking, any more than gimmicky techno effects hide lack of musical ability – but try explaining that to a modern executive, an empty suit inhabiting a soulless, corporate void. "
It not only doesn't hide it, it drowns it. If there were any potential at all in story etc. bad editing can kill it clean. The very same with music- as Dylan explains here. Sometimes intelligent experienced people get labeled soreheads by misinformed dimwits.
"Eddie are you familar with the book "in the blink of an eye" by walter murch?"
I was about to read that book! Everyone raves it's the book on editing.
George Lucas leaned heavily on Murch for the sound design of THX1138. Walter Murch was like a Mennonite Ben Burtt, without the buggy.
This reminds me of an online production journal that one (overrated) animator was chronicalling his final edit on one of his films. the animation was all finished but he was spending weeks "nuancing" the editing of a scene...down to like one or two frames. I was totally confused...I wondered if I was missing something important in my understanding of editing...then i saw his film...It was just a random mess...my sister could have seriously made a better cartoon (she's a nurse btw).
Yeah, i watch a lot of old movies and the editing in some of these is great, you don't notice it unless you are meant to...invisible editing. Modern editing draws attention to itself like when you see someone wearing a brand new pair of white sneakers. It looks wrong even though it's technically right. Or like how its now considered a good idea to have perfect shiny white glowing teeth...the modern world is becoming a baffling sterile place full of bland uninspired and safe art.
There's no such thing as 'experimental' film making anymore...now anything amateur is considered inovative.
Oh and since i'm on a rant...i heard a literary critic talking with disgust about how there's a resurgence in formalism in literature. Neo-formalism...and how awful this was. I wished i could punch him in the nose.
there is a lot of slickness in filmmaking today, cartoons and live action alike. Some of it may be editing but maybe even more so "special" fx. Some scenes on tv are over-rendered with so much lighting it just takes away from the scene. I don't think there is much they could be editng out of cartoons because there is barely any animation in them. if they edited too much it would just end up looking like an animatic or something. haahaha.
Mike - some people will never understand hiphop, but if you studied it from an objective pov you might realize it is pretty similar to 40s and 50s black r&B, just like those guys would brag about having lots of women and driving cadillac's i.e. jackie brenston's rocket 88, wynonnie harris' keep on churning till the butter comes, hip hop acts brag about women and rolling on chrome etc. It appeals to the culture because it is a sign of success and social status albiet material, but that's what garners respect is a reputation. they are just as lewd and sexually suggestive, but just due to the censorship they had to be creative. Much like most of those guys used the same 8 bar jump blues grooves, hiphop uses the same/similar beat. It is a poor-man's music because all it required was a dj to have 2 copies of the same record with a breakbeat on it, then looping the beat for a kid on a stoop to rap over. I don't think they had pianos or violins lying around in brooklyn ghettos during the dark age of the 70s. It is an extension of james brown's ideas of emphasizing rhythm in music by just isolating the funkiest drum breaks on records. Like any other music genre it has it's good and it's bad.
I agree with what desiree said:
"..a thousand bats in my face.."
I avoid action movies and animated movies these days because I don't want a thousand bats in my face.
I also don't want the abrupt sound of a train wreck every 10 seconds. Does anyobdy else besides me hate that?
>>Mike - some people will never understand hiphop, but if you studied it from an objective pov you might realize it is pretty similar to 40s and 50s black r&B,<<
except without the part that makes it music-i.e. the melody.
The beats now are ridiculously simple too. Anyone can do them. Especially when they are just programmed into computers.
"It is an extension of james brown's ideas of emphasizing rhythm in music by just isolating the funkiest drum breaks on records."
That makes it a regression, not an extension.
"Like any other music genre it has it's good and it's bad."
Except that it's not music. It's talking.
"The beats now are ridiculously simple too. Anyone can do them. Especially when they are just programmed into computers."
That is now, and everything is pretty bad now. I am referring to it in it's golden age which is normally considered early 80s to early 90's. The culture itself was as much an extension of the dance scene, and trends going on. Breakdancing, popping and locking, as well as just party/club music. Acts like Whodini are examples of guys that still wrote melodies and hooks but also rapped as well.
Except that it's not music. It's talking.
i could classify some early country with some guy telling a story over, as talking as well, or i can say andre william's bacon fat isn't a real r&b song because he is just talking over it.
except without the part that makes it music-i.e. the melody.
And i guess, we can say that tribal drumming or latin jazz or brazilian is not music either because it's more based on rhythm than a melody, In fact i guess music wasn't invented when tribal natives would beat drums and dance around, not until some sophisticate european starting writing complex melodies.
Mike, you and I would get along great! I also have been lambasted and accused of being racist for stating my extreme distaste for rap music. Like John said, its lack of the important component of "melody" would seem to discount it as being real music. I personally find it is a very bullying form of *entertainment*, that demands on being in your face and uncomfortably loud. When I find it playing in family-style restaurants, I have no qualms about asking the manager to turn it off.
By the way, if I'm considered racist for not appreciating rap, why is it then that I derive so much pleasure from such singers and musicians as Nat King Cole, Sammy Davis, Jr., Shirley Bassey, Count Basie, and (Eddie's cousin?) Ella Fitzgerald? In fact, I'm pleased and proud to be able to claim that I live within a few miles of the great Oscar Peterson! Black singers and musicians that understand the craft of making real music are all just fine in my book.
David, to the contrary - I think I understand hip-hop all too well.
I don’t dispute your characterization of R&B and its sexual content, but we’re arguing two different ideas.
My criticism of hip-hop content was just a reaction to being unfairly labeled a racist by a semiliterate cashier. (He wasn’t capable of debating the subject intellectually, so he resorted to a tactic that he thought he could "win" with.)
The truth is - content really wasn’t the issue at all. Don’t let that distract you from the main point – which is a matter of musicianship, artistic expression and quality.
Unlike R&B, rap as a musical form isn’t worthy of analysis - because it’s not really music, for the reasons outlined in John’s post above, among many other reasons.
Mighty few people could do what Wynonnie Harris and James Brown did. On the other hand, you can drop a brick out a window and hit 12 people who can do what Eminem does. Probably better.
Except that it's not music. It's talking.
Well, then they should stop calling it rap MUSIC. It's rap. Should not be confused with music at all. It's spoken word with rythm. That's what happens when marketing departments get a hold of something. Rap was once just black people minding their own business, until white people decided to buy it.
I'm not sure that rap deserves to dominate the charts over music, but music is not putting up much of a fight, being victim to hypergloss digital editing in place of ideas the same as movies.
The idea that anybody can rap is certainly true. Anybody can throw a basketball through a hoop. Anybody can make a cartoon. Anybody can act like Elvis. Rap has standouts and imposters, (mostly imposters) just like any artform.
On the other hand, you can drop a brick out a window and hit 12 people who can do what Eminem does...
Bullshit. As a crafty rapper, nuh-uh. As a stage presence, yes. Rappers pretty much all have the same moves. The only change is whether they do the moves big or small.
Jumping on the bandwagon...
One of the many irritating things about rap- the use of mixing in a clip from an older, usually better song. Example: Kayne West's "Diamonds Are Forever" stealing a clip from the Bond song. Now I've heard the argument that it is a form of a cover but holy crap, when Dean Martin covers Hank Williams he doesn't butcher the goddamn thing.
"I am referring to it in it's golden age which is normally considered early 80s to early 90's."
What's so golden about it? Do explain. I've heard all that rare supposedly "underground" and popular rap from that time period at college radio and it all sucks equally- so I have given it all a chance, and it still failed, does make me racist or closeminded?
and that's why american Jackie Chan's movie suck! Besides awful plots, that is...
What's a "crafty rapper"? Isn't that what you throw away after you unwrap your Kraft Velveeta singles?
You know you're on thin ice when you have to make up terms to justify your argument.
How about "singer/songwriter"? That might do, ...except that he doesn't sing and he can't write real songs.
Eminem won an Academy Award for best song in 2002, putting him on the same pedestal as Irving Berlin, Johnny Mercer and the Gershwins.
At the time, you could roughly divide the country into 2 distinct halves:
The smart people knew it was the end of western civilization as we know it. The stupid people said... "Irving, who?"
I guess we know which side you were on.
Irrelevant video link ahoy!
The Back Dorm Boys have a new one...
Enjoy
Steve
Mike needs a blog BAD!
See ya
Steve (Who loves Snoop Dogg's "Doggie Style")
Another thing about rap is, that it translates horribly when its in a live setting. If anyone has seen Saturday Night Live and the musical guest is a rapper, they usually have a band playing live, what a bunch of computers made in the studio. Turns out sounding like shit. Also, I guess rap in its day, the 80's actually was something new and it had a true meaning to it. Rap is now pop. Pop for the most part is all crap. Its there for the moment and is dicarded immediately after the public loses interest. The content of rap always amazes me. Its content has been at a stand still for about 15 years now. The same lyrics, beats and social message over and over again. Most rappers are unoriginal and lack the balls to try anything new. Its so formulaic and predictable.. Remember.. you cant spell crap without rap!
You know you're on thin ice when you have to make up terms to justify your argument.
Funny, when we made up terms like "funk", "cool", "jazz", you ate it up. It usually takes a few years to get out.
Eminem won an Academy Award for best song in 2002, putting him on the same pedestal as Irving Berlin, Johnny Mercer and the Gershwins.
He can't compete on melody, that's for sure. He can't nominate himself, either.
At the time, you could roughly divide the country into 2 distinct halves:
The smart people knew it was the end of western civilization as we know it. The stupid people said... "Irving, who?"
I guess we know which side you were on.
I'm on the side that don't really care.
If you wanna be outraged, try, "It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp", the 2006 winner.
It's not my fault if they don't know who to give awards to or if they don't have credible competition or don't even have the right categories.
But I'll bet 1,000 dollars you can't rap like eminem or tupac, whether I hit you with a brick or not.
What's so golden about it? Do explain. I've heard all that rare supposedly "underground" and popular rap from that time period at college radio and it all sucks equally- so I have given it all a chance, and it still failed, does make me racist or closeminded?
Maybe it just means you have no suitable frame of reference. Sometimes it's best to recuse yourself.
Plenty of "ghetto grown" people hate it, too. They tend to prefer Peabo, Luther, Jazz, R&B.
I don't know. Good rap has always been a rarity to me. I feel similarly about lots of entertainment forms.
Culturally I think it's just the latest thing that young people can have for themselves to make them feel set apart. Rock 'n' Roll was probably the first such thing. Somebody is always intentionally outside the group that can relate to such a thing. I wouldn't sweat it.
The 50's was really the first time marketers woke up to the power of catering to this teenage rebellious energy (and postwar allowance money), and ever since, the teen marketing machinery has gotten bigger, more encompassing and quicker to respond to delivering to kids whatever icons they profess to want. Anything as carefully packaged and delivered as rap now is is no different than fritos. At some point in this a process an abstract idea about self image becomes the real product.
"Sometimes it's best to recuse yourself."
What does that mean?
"I don't know. Good rap has always..."
Should I refrain from reading everything you said after that?
I have made an attempt to ascertain the good rap from the bad, but the truth is all I found was the latter.
"...But I'll bet 1,000 dollars you can't rap like eminem or tupac, whether I hit you with a brick or not..."
I can’t fart to the tune of La Marseillaise like Le Pétomane, either. So what?
That skirts the question of whether I’d ever want to, or whether it would have any artistic merit if I or anyone else did.
(Personally, I think Le Petomane and Eminem are on an equal plane, artistically.)
"...If you wanna be outraged, try, 'It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp', the 2006 winner. It's not my fault if they don't know who to give awards to or if they don't have credible competition..."
"...Culturally I think it's just the latest thing that young people can have for themselves to make them feel set apart..."
"...Anything as carefully packaged and delivered as rap now is is no different than fritos. At some point in this a process an abstract idea about self image becomes the real product..."
These are all sound points, but they don’t really address the issue, which is – is rap a viable musical form, and should it get a free pass just because it’s roots were underprivileged inner-city kids?
My answer is "no" on both counts.
First, because its "melodies" are virtually interchangeable and indistinguishable.
And secondly: because it's currently as mainstream as Fritos, and about as much fun to listen to.
I pesonally think Film-making SHOULD be easy.
Easy, quick and cheap. And I think everyone should be doing it.
>>In fact i guess music wasn't invented when tribal natives would beat drums and dance around, not until some sophisticate european starting writing complex melodies.
<<
Exactly right. Rhythm without melody is merely rhythm. Rap rhythms are barely even that. Certainly nowhere near the interest of rhythm in jazz or pop or country from the 1920s to the 1960s. Or even jungle rhythms.
It's the simplest of the simplest and completely repetitive.
I imagine in 5 years even rhythm will be gone and then what will we call "music"?
You might as well start calling eating breakfast "music" now if you're gonna call talking music.
Who's your favorite breakfast eater? Let's compare him to Dizzy Gillespie.
My 2 cents on the hip hop issue: I talked about this with one of the "old time" Motown guys, Ray Parker Jr. He said a lot of the younger guys today never developed the skills to lay down a bass line, or play a guitar groove, so they'll sample one from a song from the '70s. In this way, Ray and a lot of other old guys are getting lots of free money because the Hip Hop artists pay royalties to the original artist. Apparently James Brown is making a fortune off having his old stuff sampled!
On the main point of editing, I also have an opinion: Yes, Fred Astaire didn't NEED editing - it would have given him a chance to cheat. I went to see Michael Jackson live several years ago, and I don't think he did more than 2 or 3 seconds of dancing at a time - he did little "set-pieces" and "moves" - and after each one he had to "reset" - He never gave an extended performance - and he appeared to be playing to the cameras shooting the performance - never really making contact with the audience - but I'm sure a good editor could have constructed a performance out of these little bits. (Now, to be fair, Fred Astair would sometimes take a week to rehearse, shoot & reshoot a 90 second routine "in one take"!)
Editing should not be used as a "crutch" - but it can be a powerful tool in filmaking - Certainly Hitchcock used editing - showing the audience pieces of the scene so that the viewer got exactly the information needed. But too often, editing is used to put together a scene that was poorly planned, but quick cutting makes it look like genius. Same thing with timing, art direction, camerawork, lighting,etc. On some level ALL of these things are important, but in reality, NONE of these things are important. Howard Hawks had a great quote in an interview - "... make 3 or 4 good scenes and don't annoy the audience the rest of the time" The plot for "The Big Sleep" got lost in one of the rewrites, but it doesn't matter - the picture moves along and there are some great scenes (Like the one where Bogart is tied up & Lauren Bacall lights his cigarette)
Kent B
"Sometimes it's best to recuse yourself."
What does that mean?
Try as I might, the best Mexican polka in the world will make no impact on me. No matter what I do, I'll never get it. The things I can relate to have something to do with how I came up. You too, I expect. When Mexicans play polkas they don't care what I think. They don't care if i get it. They are just doing what they like, and I'm willing to let them.
I have made an attempt to ascertain the good rap from the bad, but the truth is all I found was the latter.
Maybe you only heard what I would consider bad, too. I don't care for a lot. Maybe you heard something I think is good and you just couldn't relate to it. You might have a hard time liking anything that's denegrating to your gender, for instance. Me too, but since rappers are not my idols my ears are still open to it. Old blues songs have some pretty violent lyrics too, sometimes.
These are all sound points, but they don’t really address the issue, which is – is rap a viable musical form,
As I indicated, I don't believe it is a musical form. It's a spoken word form, that has become so wildly popular with white kids that it is choking the delivery systems normally reserved for white musicians, who seem unable to create a compelling alternative. Who should you blame?
...and should it get a free pass just because it’s roots were underprivileged inner-city kids?
What kind of free pass? It should be noted that those inner-city kids would have been happy just to keep rapping on the corner and selling tapes out of their car trunks and have everybody leave them alone. The cultural and economic wallop hiphop now represents was mostly not at the hands of hiphoppers.
That skirts the question of whether I’d ever want to, or whether it would have any artistic merit if I or anyone else did.
(Personally, I think Le Petomane and Eminem are on an equal plane, artistically.)
Eminem comes up with some clever non-everyday shit. Noel Coward or Alexander Woolcot might not see it.
Whether or not you can relate to it, rap has much in common with blues, jazz, and r&b. it is the latest product that black people have invented that is capable of going around the globe and impressing people of vastly different cultures with its spontaneity and freshness.
>>Eminem comes up with some clever non-everyday shit. Noel Coward or Alexander Woolcot might not see it.<
why don't you give us a 3 sentence brilliant quote from his "lyrics"?
"Try as I might, the best Mexican polka in the world will make no impact on me."
How can you compare yourself not relating to Mexican polka, to me not relating to rap? Mexican polka is music, and like you even stated earlier rap is not, it is spoken word.
"You might have a hard time liking anything that's denegrating to your gender..."
Define denegrating, I am not familiar with this word.
"Old blues songs have some pretty violent lyrics too, sometimes."
That was never my quarrel, of course there are some amazing songs that are violent from people like Leadbelly or Marty Robbins, but it is backed by good music. Just rhythmically rhyming about how you are gonna pop a colla' in a pig's ass has no justification as art because there is nothing musical or artistic about it!
"It's a spoken word form, that has become so wildly popular with white kids that it is choking the delivery systems..."
Whoa, slow down "with white kids"- I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but there are thousands of black, asian and latino kids listening and loving the same goddamn crap.
"Eminem comes up with some clever..."
Please give examples, or else we are in the dark to your vast knowledge of Eminem's quick-witted mind.
"it is the latest product that black people have invented..."
Right, only black people- I am pretty sure other folks helped; ever heard of Subterranean Homesick Blues?
"...It should be noted that those inner-city kids would have been happy just to keep rapping on the corner and selling tapes out of their car trunks and have everybody leave them alone..."
Say WHAT???
HOLY CRAP!!
Sure, they never wanted all that "bling". It was all foisted on them by The Man!
They never wanted to sport all those solid gold, ten pound chains around their necks, and block-long cars filled with naked girls and credit cards. Just leave them alone to their street corners and car trunks.
Sure... What you said...
Which planet do you inhabit, anyway? Have you ever SEEN a rap video?
I'm wasting my time. As Eddie would say, "Reason has fled the British beast". This is where I sign off...
So anyway...
I'm torn re: the use of technology in animation. As a digithead and an entrepreneur, I applaud the use of technology, and I can understand why it's being used. Using technology in animation saves a considerable amount of time with creating the actual animation and editing, as well as allows DVD releases to happen faster. It also saves money for the studios where studios do not have to have as many employees because technology does most of the work. Finally, it helps generate money from syndication sales - since epis can be turned around faster, more epis can be made.
However, as a person who collects and enjoys art, I don't particularly care for what technology did to the animation biz. A lot of today's animation is too generic and, in my opinion, will not hold up as time passes. Most Tex Avery cartoons from the '40s are timeless - a person watching the cartoon won't be able to tell when it was made. However, a cartoon like the Smurfs (from the 80s) looks dated today. Twenty years from now, the CGI cartoons will look dated because the technology du jour will make it look "old", just like how CSO looks old and dated because of CGI. Plus, the ease of technology is a double-edged sword - it allows anybody to make and publish cartoons. As a result, you get a lot of poor quality, poorly constructed, poorly written cartoons.
latin jazz or brazilian is not music either because it's more based on rhythm than a melody
Sorry, but this is just plain crazy. If you ever get to study some music, you'll see how simplistic (and biased) that assertion is. I don't think you are familiar with that kind of music. Latin jazz and brazilian instrumental music is highly regarded by instrumentists everywhere because its best is rich rythmically, harmonically and melodically. That's pretty obvious to anyone with some music theory knowledge, you don't even have to play any instrument to see it. As it happens with your regular jazz, the chords used in that music are infinitely more varied and it's progressions are much more inventive than any pop music, no matter how well crafted it is. And I'm saying it from a musical standpoint, objectively. It could even be shown statistically, just check out the range of scales and modes used in that music. You could try comparing it to rap if you wanted. Of course, most rap artists don't even know what a scale is, and they don't care because they don't sing, they speak. You would be actually just checking the scale of the 10 second bass loop played through the whole song, as that is the only hint of melody in most pieces. I'm talking about musical facts, not about taste. I'd rather hear the Beatles than Sun Ra, but I can't say it's because they were more daring musically. I'll just have to accept my love for that music, with its simpler melodies and more basic chords. It hits something on me, it's catchy. Acknowledge that you love rap for what it is, even if it means accepting the fact it's not very musical, you'll be happier that way. Don't try to pretend it is something else.
I don't want to take over eddie's topic, but I'm kind of trapped.
How can you compare yourself not relating to Mexican polka, to me not relating to rap?
To me it's the same thing. The only difference is that nobody is trying very hard to mass-market mexican polka to you. As a result you have little opinion on it.
Just rhythmically rhyming about how you are gonna pop a colla' in a pig's ass has no justification as art because there is nothing musical or artistic about it!
It's not musical. It's rhythmic. How can people criticize spoken word for not having a melody? The point is, maybe it wasn't made for you. maybe that's all there is to it. Is it art? Who gives a shit? I suspect that at least occasionally it is. I expect like every other controversial form, in 30 years, there will be a few standouts and a lot of background noise. Eminem will be a standout, like it or not.
Whoa, slow down "with white kids"- I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but there are thousands of black, asian and latino kids listening and loving the same goddamn crap.
White kids are where the numbers are, and I am talking about numbers. Market Share. What counts to records labels is if white kids will pick it up.
Sure, they never wanted all that "bling". It was all foisted on them by The Man!
They never wanted to sport all those solid gold, ten pound chains around their necks, and block-long cars filled with naked girls and credit cards. Just leave them alone to their street corners and car trunks.
They never cared if YOU saw them. They were never trying to be part of your world. They had a black message for black people, and not even for all of them. The fact that you see them is not their choice. It's the choice of a giant maketing machine that decided that these blingy images could have mass appeal. Now they have a bigger stage on which to bling. Of course the whole thing has blown up big, and of course now rappers want to be that big, and of course, now they know they can. But the way rappers act is the way my people act, on a big or small scale, whether YOU are watching them or not. They will continue to be that way whenever you stop looking. For whatever reason, right now, the world can't find much else to look at.
Which planet do you inhabit, anyway? Have you ever SEEN a rap video?
How far back do you go? Believe it or not, rap and hiphop were independent and self-marketed for years until MTV got on to it. Changed everything. And no rappers were trying to get on MTV.
I'm wasting my time. As Eddie would say, "Reason has fled the British beast". This is where I sign off...
If your time is wasted, it is because you are too enamored of your opinion to deepen it.
why don't you give us a 3 sentence brilliant quote from his "lyrics"?
C'mon. You need a context, a performance, and a frame of reference as an audience. Put up 3 lines from your favorite Elvis song. What will it mean if I hate Elvis, can't relate to Elvis or can't hear how he sings it?
But if I wanted to get my ear wet, I'd try My Name Is, The Real Slim Shady, or Stan
Rap has lasting importance and cultural value- the same as the current boy bands, pop divas, and your hair-metal groups. Exactly the same.
The probem is superficiality- it isn't about anything but the pose being struck; the "art" is just an excuse to get cute people or hip people on a stage or in front of a camera.
Eminem's music is about Eminem. Britney Spears' music is about Britney- the lyrics could all be supplied by their press agents, because it's always about their image at the moment- and why do I care about that?
Claiming there's any kind of cultural importance to "slap my bitch and kill da cops" is about on the same level with claiming that the Batman movies had "pyschological depth" because Batman looked really pissed off in 'em.
Some of my personal tests for the enduring value of music include whether it translates from generation to generation, and whether it stands up to re-interpretation. The Beatles(for example)instantly pass this test: without the haircuts, the boots, or the collarless jackets, the music still sounds great, and it sounds great on a solo piano, in jazz or polka or waltz time. And it still speaks to people with other haircuts than those of the composers- as does Rimsky-Korsakov's work or Erroll Garner's.
Take away the rapper's special hand gestures and put him Sansabelt pants and a v-neck sweater and he's totally screwed. No social relevance.
Twenty years from now, somewhere on the Internet, Burl Ives will kick Eminem's ass in a popularity poll. You all know it.
Gabriel, you couldn't be more right about latin jazz.
Twenty years from now, somewhere on the Internet, Burl Ives will kick Eminem's ass in a popularity poll. You all know it.
I don't know what that measures. Most of my favorite music might fare the same. But rap isn't music.
Just a crude way of saying that I don't think Eminem and his underwhelming ilk will survive the test of time. "Popularity poll" was probably a bad phrase to stick in there.
I do think the best stuff tends to rise to the top and survive. A lot of pretty good and some really, really good stuff slips through the cracks, for sure, but I think true greatness tends to out itself, eventually.
"The Wizard Of Oz" wasn't a big hit in 1939, but look at it now...
Oh man, are we serious here? Hey Everybody! We don't all like the same kinds of music but that doesn't mean that because you don't like something it isn't music; it may be different but that doens't mean it isn't music or that something so subjective could be argued to a point. No one here is going to change their mind based on what the other side is typing in.
Take away the rapper's special hand gestures and put him Sansabelt pants and a v-neck sweater and he's totally screwed. No social relevance.
Take away the beatle's moptops and headshakes...
The probem is superficiality- it isn't about anything but the pose being struck; the "art" is just an excuse to get cute people or hip people on a stage or in front of a camera.
This is a generalization. It's generally TRUE, but has exceptions. In any case, nobody said rappers have the same motivations as Beethoven. What up wit dat? What Rappers are going around calling themselves great artists? As far as I know they mostly want to get paid and have parties. Not bad life goals, really. I'm told some people have it much worse.
I reiterate, sometimes it's best to recuse yourself.
I find it hard to believe that the rap we are usually exposed to is definitive of rap in the same way that I don't think the "rock" music on the radio is rock. If I judged rock music by Nickleback and Fallout Boy I'd be doing a great injustice to Chuck Berry and Jimi Hendrix and Led Zepplin. If i said country was Kenny Chesney and MArtina McBride I'd be taking a dump on Hank Williams grave and wiping my butt on Merle Haggards tombstone. If I said rap was Eminem and Kanye West then I'd be Taking credit away from people like Common, Aesop Rock, and The Gift of Gab. While I know anyone who doesn't like rap already won't investigate those people, there's a chance you might like some rap if you'd investigate it. I never liked country, bluegrass, or rap before I took a closer look. They may not be for everyone, but there's more to it than the radio hits.
Hey John, I can't quote Eminem but here are the words to Aesop Rock's song No Regrets(one of my favorites). What do you think?
Lucy was 7 and wore a head of blue barettes
City born, into this world with no knowledge and no regrets
Had a piece of yellow chalk with which she'd draw upon the street
The many faces of the various locals that she would meet
There was joshua, age 10
Bully of the block
Who always took her milk money at the morning bus stop
There was Mrs. Crabtree, and her poodle
She always gave a wave and holler on her weekly trip down to the bingo
parlor
And she drew
Men, women, kids, sunsets, clouds
And she drew
Skyscrapers, fruit stands, cities, towns
Always said hello to passers-by
They'd ask her why she passed her time
Attachin lines to concrete
But she would only smile
Now all the other children living in or near her building
Ran around like tyrants, soaking up the open fire hydrants
They would say
"Hey little Lucy, wanna come jump double dutch?"
Lucy would pause, look, grin and say
"I'm busy, thank you much"
Well, well, one year passed
And believe it or not
She covered every last inch of the entire sidewalk,
And she stopped-
"Lucy, after all this, you're just giving in today??"
She said:
"I'm not giving in, I'm finished," and walked away
(Chorus: x2)
1 2 3
That's the speed of the seed
A B C
That's the speed of the need
You can dream a little dream
Or you can live a little dream
I'd rather live it
Cuz dreamers always chase
But never get it
Now Lucy was 37, and introverted somewhat
Basement apartment in the same building she grew up in
She traded in her blue barettes for long locks held up with a clip
Traded in her yellow chalk for charcoal sticks
And she drew
Little bobby who would come to sweep the porch
And she drew
The mailman, delivered everyday at 4
Lucy had very little contact with the folks outside her cubicle day
But she found it suitable, and she liked it that way
She had a man now: Rico, similar, hermit
They would only see each other once or twice a week on purpose
They appreciated space and Rico was an artist too
So they'd connect on saturdays to share the pictures that they drew
(Look!)
Now every month or so, she'd get a knock upon the front door
Just one of the neighbors,
Actin nice, although she was a strange girl, really
Say, "Lucy, wanna join me for some lunch??"
Lucy would smile and say "I'm busy, thank you much"
And they would make a weird face the second the door shut
And run and tell their friends how truly crazy Lucy was
And lucy knew what people thought but didn't care
Cuz while they spread their rumors through the street
She'd paint another masterpiece
(Chorus x2)
Lucy was 87, upon her death bed
At the senior home, where she had previously checked in
Traded in the locks and clips for a head rest
Traded in the charcoal sticks for arthritis, it had to happen
And she drew no more, just sat and watched the dawn
Had a television in the room that she'd never turned on
Lucy pinned up a life worth's of pictures on the wall
And sat and smiled, looked each one over, just to laugh at it all
No Rico, he had passed, 'bout 5 years back
So the visiting hours pulled in a big flock o' nothin
She'd never spoken once throughout the spanning of her life
Until the day she leaned forward, grinned and pulled the nurse aside
And she said:
"Look, I've never had a dream in my life
Because a dream is what you wanna do, but still haven't pursued
I knew what I wanted and did it till it was done
So i've been the dream that I wanted to be since day one!"
Well!
The nurse jumped back,
She'd never heard Lucy even talk,
'Specially words like that
She walked over to the door, and pulled it closed behind
Then Lucy blew a kiss to each one of her pictures
And she died.
(Chorus x2)
1 2 3...
A B C...
I can't remember where I have read this (so maybe someone can help me out) but as far as movie monsters, cgi, etc. are concerned it has been said that the more you try to make something realistic the more it becomes apparent that the subject is not real. It is almost like trying to draw a perfectly staright line by hand; while there are some people who can get really close, for most, the attempt at a straight line looks more ridiculous and erroneous than a line that emraces the natural movement of the wrist and arm. Maybe that same commitment to perfection affects editing: the more perfect you try to make it, the more obvious that it is not perfect.
"Take away the beatle's moptops and headshakes..."
My point exactly. I think that every single song they ever wrote and released, with the exception of an experimental tape-loop piece, has been covered more than ten times (at minimum)by other bands, and in many different styles. One of their songs has been recorded over a thousand times by different artists.
"Take away the Beatle's moptops and headshakes..." and you've taken away nothing. After 1966 they threw those things away anyway.
Most modern stuff, though, I just don't see much beyond the posing. We're in a dead era of pointless belly-button gazing. The work doesn't translate, there's not much substance, and I don't think much, if any of it, will endure alongside the works of Richard Rodgers, Brian Wilson, or Lieber and Stoller. Just a personal opinion.
Also, what's wrong with generalizing, as long as it's generally correct?
John K. and Mike F. sitting at the piano and singing
"Boy the way Glen Miller played,
Songs that made the Hit Parade,
Guys like us we had it made,
Those were the days!"
One of their songs has been recorded over a thousand times by different artists.
C'mon. Rap is rap. It's not singing. It's talking. Who is ever going to re-talk somebody else's rap?
Instead of saying rap isn't art because it's not music, you should be impressed that something that's rarely even melodic is capable of almost wiping pop music out. None of this "rap isn't as deep as jazz or rock n roll" stuff means anything. All it really means is that you are no longer being marketed to, and you're annoyed by who is. Ignore it.
The beatles had moptops and headshakes precisely to provide them with cultural relevance. it worked. They outlived it, but Ringo didn't expect it. He expected to open a chain of hair salons.
"Boy the way Glen Miller played,
Songs that made the Hit Parade,
Guys like us we had it made,
Those were the days!"
Damn straight. We're coming out of a Golden Age in nearly everything.
I never said that rap isn't art. It's art. But it's crummy art. It's not good enough art to pin on your refrigerator with a magnet.
Actually, to be honest, I don't have any problem with rap/hip-hop/whatever it's called this week- it doesn't bother me at all and I don't mind it. I've never heard any that really moved me or greatly entertained me, and most of it sounds kind of shallow and dull, but that's true of most popular music in most periods. Most forties music was shallow and formulaic. Same for the fifties; same for the sixties, even. But there was great stuff. And the overall styles then were charming and had heart so that the average stuff still sounded good.
What really makes me sad is that right now there's little or no really great stuff, and if there is any it's generally hidden from most of the public, so there's no common experience of something as great as Glenn Miller or Elvis or the Beatles. Instead we have "The Macarena" and "Who Let The Dogs Out" to define these times- if anything. We'll go down as the Un-Greatest Generation.
What really makes me sad is that right now there's little or no really great stuff, and if there is any it's generally hidden from most of the public, so there's no common experience of something as great as Glenn Miller or Elvis or the Beatles.
Black people never really vibed to any of those. Didn't buy their records or care about them. Black music was always comparatively hard to find. White people had to want to find it.
Growing up in the early 60, when seeing a black person on tv was enough reason for our parents to call each other on the phone, watching the media dominance of young urban black men rhyming about how cool they are is an incredible revelation. I could never have imagined it.
i know a lot about jazz, and a lot about music in general, so i tend to appreaciate the good from every genre. I don't just dismiss a genre of music because it is "not as good" as another one. Each genre has it's place and it's pluses and minuses. I can listen to early country and western swing, or i can be a dick about it say it is simplistic and boring that it doesn't compare to wayne shorter's compositions and lee morgan's albums for blue note because they are far more complex appealing and interesting, so there is no reason to even consider having any of that primitive hick country music in my library. Or MAYBE i can appreciate the music within its CONTEXT, and pick out the elements that make it interesting and appealing, i.e. country music for its twangy sings and lyrics that reflect country life, or folk blues sung by john lee hooker, or dave bartholomew produced new orleans r&b. I can only listen to benny goodman, lionel hampton, and only listen to swing/big band jazz, or embrace the ideas of be-bop as expanding a harmonic palette in music/jazz and allowing musicians and virtuosos more freedom than the confines of a 4 bar solo in an adapted pop standard for a swing band. Much the same way people thought rock and roll was crap, there is still obviously value in it, in it's simple, emotion-fueled accessible nature. Does this make it worse than Charles Ives because it's not breaking grounds through enriching american culture with new amazing symphonies/musical ideas? I don't think so, much the same way rap or hip hop isn't a shitty music because it doesn't appeal to certain prequisites others have when choosing what to listen to.
gabriel
My comparison to latin jazz is that a lot of classic descagas, merengues, use a same looping bassline while a complex rhythm is playing on top of it. I know my latin jazz and i know my brazilian jazz/pop. if the issue is that it lacks a melody well then we can easily classify a long salsa groove by eddie palmieri or willie colon less of song because it is more based on the groove of the song rather than a real melody. And, it is dance music for the most part, so keeping an emphasis on rhythm and polyrhythm would be more important than writing a melody, like say from a hoagy carmichael song. Because obviously this isn't tin pan alley pop where people would go home with the sheet music and start playing minor broken triads in a salsa groove on their piano so everyone could "sing along." Like i said each type of music has it's place and purpose, hence the names attatched to them. Brazilian jazz, is a slighty different because is more harmonically rich, but some people might not consider "one note samba" a good melody for obvious reasons, because the MELODY doesn't change, but it moves harmonically underneath.
If you were to listen to any james brown record from the late 60s, where he goes on for 15 plus minutes, like escapism etc. you can see the roots of hiphop, where it is about a groove, a loop, moreso than a melody. People sing to tunes, they dance/rap to rhythm or a groove.
In response to "I don't really care":
Whether or not blacks could relate to The Beatles or Elvis in the 1960s, they were in fact well served by Motown Records. At Motown there were many great singers and groups, most of which appealed to much of the white listenership too. These artists were very well represented on mainstream radio as well as showing up consistently on Ed Sullivan and other music variety shows. These artists were all capable of creating melodic, fun music of great appeal, as well as presenting themselves in an elegant manner. I'll take The Supremes or Smokey Robinson any day over the repugnant rappers of today. By the way, it seems like you are of the opinion that blacks should not relate to "white" music such as The Beatles and other popular artists - if so, why not?
For some reason, my above post regarding Motown showed up as "Anonymous". I know I put my name on it so I assume there may have been a glitch in the bloggin' system!
Put up 3 lines from your favorite Elvis song.
Well since my baby left me
I've found a new place to dwell-
It's down at the end of a lonely street-
Called Heartbreak Hotel
OK, so it's 4 lines.
See ya
Steve
C'mon. Rap is rap. It's not singing. It's talking. Who is ever going to re-talk somebody else's rap?
Bad Daddy Olivier seemed to do pretty well retalking Shakes Puffy Pere's raps...
See ya
Steve
Here's a little section of Snoop Dogg's "Murder Was The Case" that I like...
As we join our rap already in progress, some tough guys have just pumped poor Snoopy full of lead...
As I look up at the sky
My mind starts trippin'
A tear drops my eye
My body temperature falls
I'm shakin' and they breakin'
Tryin to save the Dogg
Pumpin' on my chest and I'm screamin'
I stop breathin'- Damn! I see demons.
Dear God, I wonder can ya save me?
I can't die... Boo-Boo's 'bouts to have my baby!
See ya
Steve Doggie-Dogg
"Put up 3 lines from your favorite Elvis song."
I've never kissed a bear,
I've never kissed a goon,
But I can shake a chicken in the middle of the room.
(Let's Have A Party"/Phil Baxter, Cliff Friend, and Joe Haymes)
I don't really care said...
"Black people never really vibed to any of those. Didn't buy their records or care about them."
But isn't that a generalization? (Sorry). Actually, black artists covered the Beatles right and left in every genre, proving that their music did connect and that (unlike most modern stuff) the songs transcended the singers.
I don't say that rap is inherently a bad or inferior genre, and I'm certainly not mad that it's not marketed to me- I consider any really good music, any really well-written melody to be for me, regardless of style. I just haven't ever happened to hear any rap or hip-hop that I thought was particularly good.
A bold admission: I don't really care for Gregorian chants, either, but I'm sure someone could do it exceptionally well or bring something to it that I'd like. If Burt Bacharach did an album of Gregorian chants- or produced a rap album for Dionne Warwicke- I'd pick up on it and put on my listening cap. If anyone could bring a touch of elegance to bitch-slapping-up, it would be Dionne.
By the way, it seems like you are of the opinion that blacks should not relate to "white" music such as The Beatles and other popular artists - if so, why not?
I was into the beatles as a kid, after about 67. I got into early Elvis later. I was unique in my community.
I'm of the observation that they mostly simply don't. Why is complcated, but it's partly rooted in the reality of existing seperately.
It's just about what they naturally like. Black America is built around a different set of rhythms than White or Latin or Asian or Native America. But if they like something they'll listen to it.
See, white people who don't like rap will get into long conversations about its deficiencies, but from my point of view, while you were getting all googly with Elvis, my community was saying, "what's so great about a white boy trying to sing and act black? We got better than that on almost every corner, and nobody wants to put 'em on tv or pay them huge." But it was always a short conversation.
These artists were very well represented on mainstream radio as well as showing up consistently on Ed Sullivan and other music variety shows.
You had to listen to black radio to hear most black music in the 60's.
And any time a black artist made it on tv, the phones would light up. That's how common it was.
Motown by the way, had a huge calculated marketing effort directed right at white people, because Gordy knew he wanted to cross over. Thank him for all the Motown you got to hear. It was his idea, and his doing. Can you name another black label from that time?
Did you know it then, or learn it later?
Here's a little section of Snoop Dogg's "Murder Was The Case" that I like...
I can't wait til Nick Lachey covers it.
Rap wasn't made to be complicated. It wasn't made to be sophisticated. If you try to use those tools to measure it, you just get nonsense. It's a simple, basic, sometimes even brutal experience, often not intended for consumption by intellectuals, or produced by them. If it has been elevated beyond its relative significance to intellectuals, don't blame rap.
It's expression by the newly empowered, who have been given an unprecedented open channel on which to be essentially themselves, or some version thereof. Somebody relates to it.
Actually, black artists covered the Beatles right and left in every genre, proving that their music did connect and that (unlike most modern stuff) the songs transcended the singers.
Where do you find these covers? Motown. Part of their crossover effort. You don't see it until maybe 67.
"Where do you find these covers? Motown. Part of their crossover effort. You don't see it until maybe 67."
Another generalization, but also an incorrect one. The list of non-Motown artists who have covered the Beatles for the last forty-two years or so is so long I could never undertake it here. Don't know what the poointof the "post-1967" bit was, but that;s also wrong, of course. The Supremes album "A Bit Of Liverpool", for example, is from 1964.
editing tools don't kill cartoons, editors kill cartoons.
Don't know what the poointof the "post-1967" bit was, but that;s also wrong, of course. The Supremes album "A Bit Of Liverpool", for example, is from 1964.
Pardon me. it's still Motown, and still explicitly crossover-oriented.
Most of the black crossover cover version stuff occurred around the hippie blossom, is my point. Is that a fact? It's my recollection.
Wilson Pickett was not a Motown artist. Jimi Hendrix was not a Motown artist. Earth, Wind, and Fire were not Motown artists. Ella Fitzgerald was not a Motown artist. Count Basie was not a Motown artist. Aretha Franklin was not a Motwon artist. Ray Charles was not a Motown artist. Stanley Turrentine was not a Motown artist. Bobby McFerrin was not a Motwon artist. These and hundreds more non-Motown black performers covered the Beatles, and have for forty-odd years. And of course, the Beatles covered many black artists themselves. Lenny Kravitz is tremendously influenced by the Beatles.
I mentioned the 1964 Supremes album only in reference to your "not until 1967" assertion.
"Most of the black crossover cover version stuff occurred around the hippie blossom, is my point. Is that a fact?"
I would assume that covers of the Beatles (whether they are all "crossovers" or not is another question)were more common while the Beatles were active, but not sure what point that makes in reference to your original statement that "Black people never really vibed to any of those", which I feel has been refuted. And technically speaking, Beatlefan Condoleeza Rice is black.
I'm going to give it a rest now because I no longer have any idea what we're talking about. But it's been interesting, and you got me to think some. The last word is all yours, pardner!
In the unlikely event that anyone other than the two of us is still reading this, sorry to derail the discussion, Uncle Eddie!
I'll take a time-out, and come back with an editing comment.
>>"Put up 3 lines from your favorite Elvis song."
I've never kissed a bear,
I've never kissed a goon,
But I can shake a chicken in the middle of the room.
<<
Well those are great lines, but Elvis didn't write them. He's a singer, a real one.
What the Hell is Eminem?
If he's a writer, put up his lines, smart mouth.
If he's a writer, put up his lines, smart mouth.
Sure I claim he is a writer. A great writer? Probably not, if you measure his comparative body of work to reknown artists. His best work may already be behind him. We will see. What are his words compared to the collected works of Hemingway? Not much, I reckon. I simply insist that is not the point. When I listen to some of his tracks, my ears perk up. That's my point. The guy has delivery. What's his message? Mostly stupid and reckless. I don't care. But posted lyrics can't represent it.
Hey! Lucky you.
I would assume that covers of the Beatles (whether they are all "crossovers" or not is another question)were more common while the Beatles were active, but not sure what point that makes in reference to your original statement that "Black people never really vibed to any of those", which I feel has been refuted.
Not really. I'm talking about early 60's british invasion period. It would be hard to find a black person who gave a shit about the beatles, herman's hermits, stones, any of that stuff. Not impossible, but damn hard. it's a fact. Even later black music fans didn't much lean towards white music. They'd listen to black artists doing covers, though.
Let's git wit da shizzle wit da u toob shiz-nit!
What's My #%^@(& Name?
Steve Doggie-Dogg!
Ay-men!
Tv cartoons especially!
over-edited, over directed, over-animated...usually over there.
Everybody: LOL! I feel like an ant watching tyrannosauruses do battle! I'm in awe!
Eddie, if you're ever NOT laughing out loud, take a picture and send it to me!
Steve: Thanks for the music...I think. Hey, bring the Benji acting film with you on Saturday!
Seens I recall of someone recently finally cajoling Ray Harryhausen into letting them do some CG animation, with his properties, his supervision, or just his name slapped on. I can't tweak out what it might be however, from IMDB.
Occasionally there is some post modern self parody in Rap, for what that is worth; unfortunately, a lot of the audience (lovers and haters both) don't realize it is there, so it may as well not be there.
I sometimes try to imagine a white version of rap, and it ends up being perhaps an auctioneer or a square dance call (the auctioneer would have more rhythmic chops). Malcom McLaren tried that 25 years ago or so with Buffalo Gals, I think the commentary zoomed over a lot of peoples heads (or it was so obvious, most didn't really notice the commentary, or care)
There is plenty of country music today that doesn't really have a melody, and isn't really sung, as much as talks to its audience, telling them what they want to hear.
Pop Music really has taken very few breaths of its own since radio was ownzered 30 years back, but mass marketing doesn't mix with quality so much anymore.
Can we talk about editting again please?
There are arguments out there that some people believe so ardently that you cannot change their mind about it (the god argument, political arguments, and apparently this asinine one). We could waste our time throwing poo, or we could constructively talk about animation related stuff so I can do something cool when I get out into the industry.
I'm taking a class in college and we watched "On the Waterfront". Afterwards we were to talk about our "feelings" about the movie (I'm stuck with a modernist teacher *cries*), and I was astonished to find what my peers thought. Everyone said the pacing of the film was "slow" and "dragged" whereas I thought it built drama and helped to visually establish pathos. One kid even said "well, the movie really dragged until the teamsters started beating people in the church. The blood effects were pretty good too, considering it was from the 50's." I think he missed the intentions of the film.
My problem is that my aesthetic is so different from others. Is it my fault? Am I already alienating the audience I'd like to entertain in the future? Is there anyway to combine the two and keep the integrity of both?
"There are arguments out there that some people believe so ardently that you cannot change their mind about it (the god argument, political arguments, and apparently this asinine one). We could waste our time throwing poo, or we could constructively talk about animation related stuff so I can do something cool when I get out into the industry."
You're absolutely right. I think everyone here owes Katzenjammer a big apology for holding a pointless discussion and wasting his time.
Oh, wait a minute- he's in film school.
if this is the case, you will LOVE my student animation!
Hi! I'm the rhyme scientist!
Don't forget the huge variety of beats in underground hip-hop that'll have you jumpin' straight outta your seat! Some are harsh and violent, some are bouncy and fun, some are hype, some are scary, some are really depressing, some are smooth and soothing, just to mention a few. There's even a huge variety within these types! And that's just the production half of the equasion! Besides lyrical content, there's a huge variety of voices rhyming over these beats, each with a different type of flow.
I can't believe nobody has brought up the extremely witty lines Celph Titled uses. He's got a really unique, gritty voice that you'd have to hear to believe, plus he's a talented producer. Here's one of his verses, from the song, "The Smackdown", with co-artists Rise, Apathy & C-Rayz Walz:
[Verse 3 - Celph Titled]
This is history in the making better get your camcorder tuned
You couldn't move me driving a U-Haul through a transporter room
You have a quarter to 12.5 seconds
I'm that out of order goon that'll transform to a monsoon
This Cuban n***a runs through rappers with the one two
With my guns drew so what the f**k you gonna do
When I be sonning cats with my futha muckin stunning raps
In fact I'll f**k ya b**ch in the back of the ass crack
And bust a nut in that (Urgh)
You get no receipt when all sales are final
I'll leave you (b-side/beside) yourself
like the other side of the vinyl
They call me Celph Titled cause no words describe me
I stomp through your project with the calvary behind me
Honestly the day ya wax is in stores taking residence
Is the day we see a female black homosexual president
Ju talkin shit to me I put the slug in ya face
Attach razors to my shoes so I could cut to the chase
You couldn't drop knowledge if you through an encyclopedia off a cliff
I grab my rifle load the clip and scratch you off my list
The illest n***a to walk the planet how do I know this
Cuz I got sent to Hell but they kicked me out because I froze it
~~~~~~~~~
So, did I change anybody's mind? If not, here's yet ANOTHER song called "No Joke", with Apathy and Celph Titled. Here's Celph's verse:
[Verse 2 - Celph Titled]
On a scale from one to ten
approximately I'm a thousand
stomp through you neighbourhood, city or project housin'
I am something that you've never seen before
like your grandparents havin' sex behind closed doors
I rhyme like a scavenger who hunts for his prey
and probably kill a dozen rappers and just call it a day
all I need is a b**ch who'll give me wet dreams
so I can get my rocks off like errosining streams
I drop science like clumsy professors in auditoriums
and stretch n***a's out like a montherf**kin accordion
I make you look stupid like loosen a bet
you can catch the greyhound and I'll just cruise in my jet
I'm impossible to beat like playin' Tic Tac Toe
Celph Titled is famous for spittin' ill rap flows
yo, me and Apathy are like brothers since birth
you could catch a bad one and get put under the earth
...and an interchange between both of them in the same song:
[Verse 3]
(Celph Titled)
Yo, I'll find your vital organs and put a machete there
thug type n***a but b**ches say I'm a teddy bear
al Capone style brusin' your back
make you an interracial cat, half blue and half black
(Apathy)
Block attacks with the raps that I spit on wax
s**t on cats, everything I flip on dats
hits hard like rockys fists, could not be missed
ya'll got me pissed, now I'm on some Nagasaki s**t
(Celph Titled)
And while you at work I feed you b**ches sloppy dick
I got a hard drive, your man got a floppy disk
the only time you have safe sex and be felt
is if you jacked off in a car wearin a seatbelt
(Apathy)
Your brain melts to mush, your girl felt the rush
when ap's bound to bust through pelvic thrust
twist your spine, inflict despicable shit through rhymes
critical and credible are crippelin your pitiful mind
(Celph Titled)
pull out my nine and it's body and ?? time
you signed the death contract, and bled between the white line
crash the players ball, and make the chandelier fall
choke house guests with orderves made of sea foam
(Apathy)
And metaphores better than yours, settle the scores
Leave cats wrapped up in medical guards
You better applaud, your feminine, I'll rip out your skeleton
and now ladies and gentlemen
~~~~~~~
Still not convinced? There's TONS of others that I'll probably post later.
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